• All threads and posts regarding Coronavirus COVID-19 can be found in our area specifically for Coronavirus COVID-19 discussion.

    You can directly access this area >here<.

Gifting money from mums account now she in a care home

bensusu

New member
Apr 15, 2020
9
Hi, need some financial advice as keep reading different things and find myself going round in circles..mum went into a care home self funded I june, myself and brother have POA..she has capital savings under £45,000 and we will need to sell her house in next 8months...I read we can each have £3000 each financial year? Or can we? My name is on her bank account and already we have had my birthday in june and my brothers which we had £20 each as I was too scared to take out any more..mum keeps saying, take some money, but I dare not touch it...so am I allowed to give myself and brother some late birthday money and money at Christmas?
 

Grannie G

Volunteer Moderator
Apr 3, 2006
71,968
Kent
I would be very careful about awarding yourselves £3000 a year if there may come a time when your mother will need LA support for her care.

When I was in control of my mother`s finances I asked Social Services about gifts. I was told gifts which had been a regular practice in previous years were acceptable and I was given the go ahead to give one of my mother`s granddaughters £250.00 as a wedding gift. It was also considered acceptable to pay for a funeral plan from her money.

£3000 a year can be a tax free gift but not if it incurs deprivation of assets.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
21,068
North Manchester
The £3000 limit is related to IHT.
"People you give gifts to will be charged Inheritance Tax if you give away more than £325,000 in the 7 years before your death. "
https://www.gov.uk/inheritance-tax/gifts .

You should be more concerned about the OPG guidance for attorneys
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/opg-updates-legal-guidance-on-giving-gifts .

Both of these will be overridden by the LA's decision as to whether there has been deliberate deprivation of capital
https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalasse..._deprivation_of_assets_in_social_care_fcs.pdf .
 
Last edited:

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
13,691
South coast
I think your gut feeling about the gifts is the correct one.
I understand about your mum saying to take money, but people with dementia are notorious for giving away money. Mum took out hundreds of pounds regularly from her bank before I got deputyship and although I found large stashes of cash hidden in her home Im sure it didnt account for all the missing money. OH gave away thousands before I could stop him and he had no understanding that we would need it in the future. As POA you simply cant allow that.
 

Banjomansmate

Registered User
Jan 13, 2019
2,215
Dorset
As Attorney for The Banjoman I would remind him about the occasion, ask him first, then gift his two daughters £50 each for their Birthday and Christmas presents but never did anything for myself as he didn’t think about giving me anything after the dementia took hold, although he would always be generous when mentally aware.
If your Mum would have been happy to give you gifts of money for events like that, as her children I think you could award yourself an amount equal to what she would spend but nothing in the thousands if her money is going to be used for residential care.
 

Susan11

Registered User
Nov 18, 2018
2,514
I think you can only give one gift of £3000, not £3000 each before inheritance tax . I think you should be more worried about "Deprivation of Assets "
 

Susan11

Registered User
Nov 18, 2018
2,514
Thats correct, but is nevertheless inheritance tax rules, which is a completely different thing from POA rules and Deprivation of Assets.
You're correct. I amended my comment slightly. From my Mum's money I have only given presents on her behalf to her Granddaughter and Great Grandson . My husband and I haven't had any.
 

imthedaughter

Registered User
Apr 3, 2019
508
Dad stopped noticing birthdays and Christmas a few years ago. Although I have access to his account I haven't done any gifts, although I was thinking about gifting his grandchildren, my neices and nephews, something for their birthdays, but he really has so little money now I think I may have to not, which is sad but I know they will understand.
 

prittlewell

Registered User
Jan 28, 2020
36
Personally, and I started a similar thread a few weeks ago, I feel that you should use the maximum you can, within the law, to reduce the assets held by your PWD.
Giving several thousand a year away, assuming their estate is large enough, can make a huge difference the the lives of children and grandchildren, but would only pay a few extra weeks of care home fees in a few years time.

The problem all comes down to the word ‘Reasonable‘..... and this is subjective based on the persons estate size, what gifts they used to make (and who can prove that?), and their life expectancy.

From the OPG website....

5.2 So, do I need to apply to the court?
If you can answer ‘yes’ to all three questions below, you don’t need permission from the Court of Protection to give a gift:

  1. Is the gift to someone related to, or connected with, the person – or to a charity they might normally have given to?
  2. If the gift is to a person, is it being made on a customary occasion?
  3. Is the gift of reasonable value, given the size of the person’s estate and their expected future needs?
 

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
13,691
South coast
I feel that you should use the maximum you can, within the law, to reduce the assets held by your PWD.
The trouble is that this is the very definition of Deprivation of Assets.
If their assets are so large that they would never get low enough to need LA funding, then its not a problem, but once the assets go down low enough to trigger LA funding then there will be a financial assessment and at this point the LA has the authority to demand the money back again. As funding gets tighter, they will, IMO, undoubtedly start looking even more closely at financial history
 

northumbrian_k

Registered User
Mar 2, 2017
1,051
Newcastle
Anything that is outside the usual pattern of gifting is likely to be seen as Deprivation of Assets. I can see why people take the view that the money would be used better if given to children or grandchildren but if this cannot be shown to be customary, dating back well beyond the onset of dementia, it may well be questioned by any local authority involved. To the original poster I wouid say simply 'no you can't'. Acting as Attorney you have a duty to show responsible use of any funds. Attorneys helping themselves to 'gifts' would be in breach of this duty.
 

Lynmax

Registered User
Nov 1, 2016
580
My mother gave my eldest son £5000 when he got married, she also gave £1000 to all my children when they were 21. It is reasonable to assume that she would have been equally generous to my sisters children had she not developed Alzheimer's. Now she is in a Care Home my siblings and I look after her finances and we have decided that my adult children will no longer be given money gifts on behalf of Mum for birthdays or Christmas but that my sisters children would continue to receive gifts until they are 21.

My mum is self funding and has sufficient funds to pay for her care for over 20 years - at age 87, I doubt she will need it all! However, I do feel slightly guilty that my sister is not aware exactly how much my Mum gave my children ( no favouritism by Mum, it's simply that there is a large age gap between the grandchildren) so we are only planning to give £50 for birthdays and £100 at Christmas which is what Mum gave - it's the special events and birthdays that were more generous.

My younger two will miss out on the very large wedding gift as there is no way could I justify giving such an amount.

The only reason my Mum has so much money is that my Dad was a very canny man who bought shares into all the Utility Companies when they were privatised and sold them later when the prices rose. He never benefitted from their savings as he died many years ago and they certainly did not lead a luxurious lifestyle!
 

prittlewell

Registered User
Jan 28, 2020
36
My mother gave my eldest son £5000 when he got married, she also gave £1000 to all my children when they were 21. It is reasonable to assume that she would have been equally generous to my sisters children had she not developed Alzheimer's. Now she is in a Care Home my siblings and I look after her finances and we have decided that my adult children will no longer be given money gifts on behalf of Mum for birthdays or Christmas but that my sisters children would continue to receive gifts until they are 21.

My mum is self funding and has sufficient funds to pay for her care for over 20 years - at age 87, I doubt she will need it all! However, I do feel slightly guilty that my sister is not aware exactly how much my Mum gave my children ( no favouritism by Mum, it's simply that there is a large age gap between the grandchildren) so we are only planning to give £50 for birthdays and £100 at Christmas which is what Mum gave - it's the special events and birthdays that were more generous.

My younger two will miss out on the very large wedding gift as there is no way could I justify giving such an amount.

The only reason my Mum has so much money is that my Dad was a very canny man who bought shares into all the Utility Companies when they were privatised and sold them later when the prices rose. He never benefitted from their savings as he died many years ago and they certainly did not lead a luxurious lifestyle!
I strongly disagree with this, but obviously each to their own. As an attorney you also have an obligation to do what your mother would have wanted, and if her age means that she will not likely outlive funds, then you should feel free to give more generously.

Any gift I give, is a gift that I believe Mum would have made had she had capacity.

Yes the Council can dispute it at a later date if and when the money runs out, but after paying £350k towards her care, over 8 years, when some pay nothing, then they can try. They have to PROVE it was deprivation of assets..........I don’t have to prove it wasn’t. The number of councils who take relatives to court over deprivation seems very low, as it is very difficult to prove, unless it is blatant, ie transferring a property just prior to going into care.

Even then, a friend of mine, transferred his mother’s property into the children’s names 9 months before she went into care. The council asked if it was done to avoid home fees, and he said no, and the council just accepted it. When he queried (at a later date and off the record with a council officer we knew) why they accepted it, the officer told him that as his mother had not had a an official diagnosis of dementia, they could not PROVE it was done to avoid home fees, even if they believed it was.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jaded'n'faded

Registered User
Jan 23, 2019
953
High Peak
@prittlewell I understand your feelings about paying out so much for care and I think you're completely entitled to feel bitter. Mum's care 'only' cost £150,000 but I feel bitter and angry she had to pay so much.

I also think you should get the same help from social services (if you want it) whether you are self-funding or not.
 

prittlewell

Registered User
Jan 28, 2020
36
@prittlewell I understand your feelings about paying out so much for care and I think you're completely entitled to feel bitter. Mum's care 'only' cost £150,000 but I feel bitter and angry she had to pay so much.

I also think you should get the same help from social services (if you want it) whether you are self-funding or not.
I think many feel this way. I got my hopes up when after the General Election, there was going to be a further all party review, with a cap put on how much someone should pay, but with all this Covid expenditure going on, I doubt anything will come of it now. And even if a cap is put on is 3 or 4 years, it will not likely be backdated to anyone who has already spent more than this.

In hindsight I should have suggested to Mum she took an interest roll up mortgage out several years ago, so she could give the money away then, as she wanted, but she was convinced that everyone she wanted to help, would benefit financially on her death. She did not expect it all go to the Council!
 

theunknown

Registered User
Apr 17, 2015
436
As deputy for my mum (we'd gone past being able to be granted PoA), I understood the £3000 gifting as being a tax issue. During the five years I was deputy, at birthdays and Christmas, I gave money gifts of £30 to £50 pounds to immediate family, as I knew that was around what my mum spent. This, even with other regular payouts my mum had made, didn't amount to £3000 per annum.

In my case, my mum's wil did benefit her two daughters, as she had two pensions and savings. [Thanks Mum, but I really wish you'd enjoyed your money more]. I had to sell her house, as she was placed on a Section 3 and I needed to find a care home for her. The thing for me was that, as long as my mum was alive, it was her money. If that meant using it for care for her, that's what it was there for.