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Financial projections for Frontal Lobe Projections care and no crystal ball

Discussion in 'Middle - later stages of dementia' started by Twig, Aug 19, 2019.

  1. Twig

    Twig New member

    Aug 7, 2018
    my mother in law was diagnosed officially in 2018 but presented classic symptoms associated with FTD for at least 5 years before.
    She has been in a good care home for about a year because she is mobile and needs stimulus, however she is starting to lose inhibitions and speak gibberish sentences ( child-like 'whiccy woccy woo, and gurgling sounds like a coffee maker)
    The care home is expensive and being paid for from house sale, the family has a £250k sum from a covenant on the house sale but are thinking of putting it back into the pot as they want what's best for their mum, with an inurance company, they have negotiated and have an annuity with the care home of 5% in perpetuity for care but not nursing

    The upshot is that if it is an early death, the insurers take all the money but if she lives for a long time, care is covered.

    Nursing is inevitable at some point- can they rely on state care when it comes to this point?

    If the family do not go with the insurers and 'wing it', they have 4.5 to 5 years at average 7% increase.

    I'm curious to hear how others are coping with this sort of projection,

    What have others looked at and how are they getting by or has anyone heard of any financial plans / planning assistance specialising in these situations? I'd be really grateful for any leads, it just seems so awful gambling over life expectancy for insurers to take all.
  2. nellbelles

    nellbelles Volunteer Host

    Nov 6, 2008
    Hello @Twig and welcome to DTP
    I personally know nothing about this sort of annuity it sounds to me like you would benefit from talking to an independent financial advisor
  3. Shedrech

    Shedrech Volunteer Moderator

    Dec 15, 2012
    hello @Twig
    a warm welcome to posting on DTP
    you have a lot to think about, and I agree that getting independent advice might be wise
    personally, I've not fetlt that the annuities available really offer value for money ... but that's only my opinion

    others have discussed this before so you might find their threads by going to the home page and using the search bar, maybe try 'annuity' as a search term
  4. Twig

    Twig New member

    Aug 7, 2018
    Hi, thanks for your reply. This is from a financial adviser, I was wondering if people have pursued other options or if there's an information point out there that specialises in collating different ways people manage their projected finances within the timeframes of FTD and the switch between care and nursing.
  5. Normaleila

    Normaleila Registered User

    Jun 4, 2016
    "for care, not nursing" That sounds worrying to me. It doesn't seem flexible. It would be a shame to hand over all that money and then find that you don't get what you thought you would.
    My aunt's IFA advised against an annuity, as it happens, but of course each case is different.
  6. Kevinl

    Kevinl Registered User

    Aug 24, 2013
    It's an impossible question to answer, but here's some thoughts on the matter for you to consider.
    Who old is your MiL? that will have a bearing on the situation, advise for a 95 year old wouldn't be the same as a 65 year old and are there any other underlying medical conditions?
    She's in a care home but you say nursing care is "inevitable" so if the home can't cope with that then she'll have to move at some time and nursing care won't be covered by the annuity so they're more than likely be a top up needed, can you pay that bearing in mind you've given up your equity in the house.
    If she does get a lot worse she may become eligible for CHC funding in which case the NHS will pay for her care or if she goes into a nursing home the Funded Nursing Care may be paid (about £150 pw) but only in a nursing home.
    my wife's been in an Emi nursing home for over 3 years and was sectioned for 6 months before that, she's completely immobile and hasn't spoken for about 4 years but there's plenty worse than her in there still hanging in.
    The longest have been there for over 10 years, some less time but have been in care homes before that so spent many years in care one way or another.
    The shortest I know of moved from a care home and passed away 3 days later, it all went to the coroner and nothing untoward happened but in over 3 years only 8 of the original 30 are still there although some have moved to the high dependency unit.
    In three years more have come and gone than I care to remember some lasted weeks, some months and some years and some will outlive us all but it's impossible to tell which is which or should that be who's who?
    Home will ask you to move someone if they become too difficult or basically lower the tone of the place, other residents will complain and so will their visitors, will her sound effects start to annoy people, if she starts to wander into other people's rooms, take things, make a mess in general what happens? If she's the most challenging person in the place she might be the first they ask to go, nice home stay nice by getting rid of anyone too challenging.
    A care home will have access to the usual NHS things like a GP and a district nurse but that may be all, if she becomes to difficult foe them to manage they may recommend a move to somewhere better able to meet her needs like a nursing home or an EMI unit.
    Personally, and this is just my opinion I wouldn't do it just yet as you say once you buy the annuity that's the money gone.
    I've visited my wife something over 1,250 times usually for an hour or 90 minutes but sometimes for 4 or 5 hours and so I know all of the residents well and I wouldn't want to second guess how it will turn out for any of them as I've been wrong too often it the past.
  7. Twig

    Twig New member

    Aug 7, 2018
    Thank you- I’m a bit concerned about an annuity, it just feels stacked in the insurers favour, they have made their own assessments etc, thanks again for your reply
  8. Twig

    Twig New member

    Aug 7, 2018
    Thanks K,
    She’s 83 and starting to hit people and be inappropriately suggestive to men at the home and in public- it feels like she’s about to take another big step in the journey and the staff have already mentioned the other wing of the home. The problem in all this is the three sons trying to figure it out objectively!

    Thank you for your thoughts on the matter, it all helps
  9. Kevinl

    Kevinl Registered User

    Aug 24, 2013
    So if she goes to the "other wing" and that costs 50% more than the care wing then who pays the difference? The annuity company have said they'll only pay the care home costs so if the "other wing" be it called EMI/nursing/challenging behaviour, call it what you will then who pays the difference in costs?
    Personally I wouldn't take out a care annuity for someone who sounds like from what you've now said is very definitely "challenging" and that's not covered by the annuity.
    My wife's in an Emi nursing home and it's mainly populated by people kicked out of other homes or like my wife been sectioned for aggression, the care element of her cost is about half of the total care cost the rest goes on a very high level of staff and the nursing element of her care.
    As I said earlier I'd put the decision on ice for a while and see what happens if putting all the money into an annuity means they're be no money available to fund the extra cost of paying for a higher level of care which seems to be on the horizon, looming in fact.
    If she's starting to hit people then it's possible she might (if it continues) get sectioned and if it's a section 3 then all her aftercare will be paid for under section 117 so no need for an annuity, you could use her money to pay a first party top up for a home you prefer so the annuity would e redundant, likewise as I said before she may get CHC and again the annuity would be redundant because all her fees would be paid for by the state.
    It's a minefield and none of us has a mine detector we're al just "winging it" but you've mentioned "hitting people", inappropriate behaviour" and the staff talking about other wings some of which could trigger LA/NHS funding which would make me wonder about spending £250k on an annuity when state funding might take over either with CHC, FNC or Section 117 which would either cover some are all of the costs of her care, part if it's FNC but all of it if it's CHC or S117 which would be a "get out of jail free" card for the annuity company.
    Aggression or violence is a big trigger for getting state funding, so if it's becoming an issue all the more reason for putting the decision on hold for at least a while until events unfurl.
  10. Twig

    Twig New member

    Aug 7, 2018
    Again, many thanks for your insights, I’ve forwarded them to my husband, it has really helped and the dialogue is changing between the brothers

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