Finances

[Gill W]

Hello,

Me again, with yet another question.

I'm gradually working my way through all the threads in the forum, & finding lots of info on lots of topics. I'm reading a lot about EPA and Power of Attorney & such like.

Exactly what is EPA & what does having it mean to a carer?

I am aware that Gran's house is owned by her & her 3 siblings, they all chipped in years ago to buy the house from the council & in the event of Gran's death the house proceeds will be split between the 4 of them.

I'm also aware that Mum has a card for Gran's bank account, in order that Gran has money in her purse every week. This was set up pre-diagnosis, for several reasons:

(i) we discovered Gran had got lost on her way to the hairdressers one day. She's gone to the same hairdresser on the same day of the week for god knows how long, but she got lost. She cannot now go out unaccompanied. She therefore needs to be given money rather than her going out for it.
(ii) we realised Gran had lost the ability to count out money, she couldn't recognise the value of notes & coins. She once gave me £30 when I'd said she would need to give me no more than £5 for a few bits of groceries she wanted me to pick up for her.
(iii) Mum found various hidey-holes with money in them, & we became concerned that she had money in the house & had let someone in from the Gas Board one day, but was he from the Gas Board? We didn't like the idea of her having heaps of money in the house so agreed with her we would get her money for her every week.

I believe Mum's siblings are all happy with the arrangements that are in place, but should Mum have some sort of back up in place in case there are arguments in the future? I'm hoping that there won't be, I don't think Mum would deal with it too well, but you never know.

Could anyone help me out with this one? I think that Gran has a will made out, but is this irrelevant?

Gill
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[Margarita]

I am aware that Gran's house is owned by her & her 3 siblings, they all chipped in years ago to buy the house from the council & in the event of Gran's death the house proceeds will be split between the 4 of them.

I think that Gran has a will made out, but is this irrelevant?

No its not

Who name is the deeds of the house in , you have to find out .


and a will is a must if if the deeds of the house is her name.

PS

EPA it means that your mother has 3rd party on your grandmother bank account , your mother by law can transfer money from your grandmother account to another account and do counter withdrawers from her bank and sigh cheques on her cheque book

Also can sort out all your grandmother pension and benefits

by law she can not use your grandmother card unless she registers the EPOA at the court of protection, when your mother feels that your grandmother has become mentally incapably to handling her finances .

also with EPOA you can sell they house on they behalf, if the person has not put a claws / restriction on EPOA saying they can’t

 

[Gill W]

Ok. Thank you.

So, if mum & her siblings own Gran's house, an EPA wouldn't be needed when the time comes to sell her house? I'm not sure who's name is on the deeds for the property, probably Gran's I think, but I'll have to check with Mum. If Gran's name is on the deeds, does that then mean that when Gran is in a care home the house will have to be sold & the money used to pay for her care? But if Mum & her siblings are on the deeds it wouldn't?

And does this third party thing mean that Mum should not actually be withdrawing money for Gran on her behalf? I think that the bank is aware Gran is mentally ill, we've had to replace 'lost' cheque books on several occasions. It's worrying to think that Mum could actually be in trouble for doing this for Gran, when its a legitimate thing? Mum never sees a penny of it, it all goes to Gran & pays for her meals & carers that go in morning & afternoon.

Lordy, there's so much to think about & I don't want to make mum feel like she's not got things in order when she's doing so well dealing with things in the first place? Don't know what to do or say for the best but would hate to think that there would be chaos in the event of Gran's death. It would be bad enough as it is without ensuing arguments.

Gill
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[noelphobic]

And does this third party thing mean that Mum should not actually be withdrawing money for Gran on her behalf? I think that the bank is aware Gran is mentally ill, we've had to replace 'lost' cheque books on several occasions. It's worrying to think that Mum could actually be in trouble for doing this for Gran, when its a legitimate thing? Mum never sees a penny of it, it all goes to Gran & pays for her meals & carers that go in morning & afternoon.

Gill
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Hi Gill

Are you talking about an ATM card? I would personally think that this is a bit of a grey area. Obviously the official line is that you shouldn't give anyone your card or PIN. However, I am sure lots of people do. I often used to get money for my dad from the 'hole in the wall'. It would only be an issue if your Gran was to say money had been withdrawn from her account without her permission. If the bank knew she had given a third party her card and PIN then they could try to use that to deflect responsibility from themselves - eg claim that your mum was defrauding your Gran. That sounds very harsh and I am sure it is very much a worse case scenario.

Ideally it would be best to get EPA. Would your mum be happy to do this and would the other close relatives be happy for her to do so? There are factsheets on the AS site and there are lots of people here who have been through this (although I haven't personally) and I am sure others will be along with more advice.

Brenda

 

[Gill W]

Hi Brenda,

Yes, its a cash machine card that mum has. It's her own card for Gran's account, as Gran was frequently losing her own & stating it had been taken from her so she couldn't spend her own money. Gran still has her own card & cheque book, se just doesn't get out of the house on her own anymore. Mum doesn't have a cheque book, just the card.

The bank were told that Gran has dementia & that this was happening a lot, & I'm pretty sure that Gran was with them when all this was said & agreed on. Mum only uses it to get Gran's money for her every week, & to access the Attendance Allowance in order to pay for her carer & the meals we have made & delivered to her.

I'm starting to panic now, thinking poor mum might be in dire trouble. Gran has asked mum a couple of times for her pension back, when in fact it's been paid into the bank for many years, well before Gran was diagnosed, but of course she's forgotten. Mum calmly tells Gran that her money is in the bank where its always been, that there's lots left in there for her to use if she should want anything in particular, & this seems to pacifiy Gran & the subject gets left for a while. I know my aunt is aware that mum takes care of the payments for the carer etc & seems happy with the arrangement. All of mum's siblings know what the set up is & agree that it works, I'm just beginning to worry for her that things could go wrong when she least needs them too.

Gill
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[Helena]

Firstly for 4 pounds you can download a copy of the Deeds from the Land Registry website

If the house is not in 4 names its VITAL you see a solicitor to see if the others interest in the property can be officially registered otherwise the house will indeed be calculated as assetts and used to fund care home

2nd The Bank had no business whatever issuing a card in your Mothers name to use on her Mothers Account unless the EPA is registered

Since your Grandmother is clearly well into being mentally incapable if handling her finances etc you MUST register the EPA and you wont be able to sell the house or sign much of the paperwork etc without that EPA being registered

 

[Gill W]

Oh lord!

I think I may have been right to be worried here then. Now I'm definitely panicking!

*prints more paperwork for mum to read*

This needs to be looked at again, methinx. Can't have Mum having grief where its not needed.

Gill
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[Margarita]

Don’t panic, don’t worry.

Read my story.

I had EPOA I did not know that using mum ATM was against the law, until the day came that someone copy my mother card at a ATM machine .

Money was coming out all over the place from ATM machine from my mother account all from our area.

I phone bank who ask me who in my new my mother pin me , will only me , yes I panic. No way was anyone blaming me for taking my mother money I told bank that my mother was always with me when I may withdraws from her account.

I phone my mother lawyer , who had my mother EPOA he could not find the original cope ( thank –god bank has a cope ) , he also told me that he did not hear me say that I use my mother ATM card as its ageist the law .

I report it all to the police, ask M&S to check CCTV in case I left it there when it was last use with my mother .

I phone bank who sent me a form to fill out to claim the money back , I went to Barclay bank , the manger new my mother for the last 22 years she been banking there , she was a career in the past . I told her the whole story and how much mistake where on my mother bank statements, in the last 2 mouths and then this happens

She told me to register the EPOA in the courts of protection, then my mother whole account will go in to my name and they would be no problem with using ATM card in the eyes of the law.

Yes your mother is breaking the law using the card , even thought your mother has the approval of the whole family . it will only come to light if someone outside your family gets hold of that PIN number , never every use a cash machine that has 2 cash machine and one is broken down , they have ways of copying the pin always , always put one hand over the hand that puts the PIN in .

Yes I got all the money back after the bank done all they investigation with they fraud department and the police .

So, if mum & her siblings own Gran's house, an EPA wouldn't be needed when the time comes to sell her house?

Yes as long as the Deeds are in all they Names .

If Gran's name is on the deeds, does that then mean that when Gran is in a care home the house will have to be sold & the money used to pay for her care? But if Mum & her siblings are on the deeds it wouldn't?

Yes thats right

I'm not sure who's name is on the deeds for the property, probably Gran's I think, but I'll have to check with Mum.

yes check it out . as it Gets all complicated if if is and no one has , EPOA .



If you change it now (deeds) I think that the person has to be alive for 7 years . Then after 7 years you don’t pay inheriting tax
If they need to go in care home before 7 years house has to sold to pay for they care .

(May have got the years wrong )

 

[jenniferpa]

Gill is it possible that the bank account is now in fact a joint account? It's the only way I can see a bank giving a cash card to a third party, even if you had a third party mandate rather than an EPA (a third party mandate is set up with specific bank).

Jennifer

Edited to add - re Margarita's point about the 7 years: that is just for inheritance tax. Local Authority's can go after the money anytime after a property has been signed over, even 7 years although that would be extremely unlikely. The issue is intent - if the intent was to avoid paying care home fees, then they can try to claw the money back. Even if it was 6 months ago, and the intent was not to avoid fees in theory they couldn't (although you'd have to prove that). Also inheritance is a dodgy issue when no rent has been paid, even if the deeds are in someone else's name. If you think the house might be worth more than the threshold, I would strongly advise a visit to a solicitor (or CAB).

 

[Gill W]

*wipes sweat from brow*

*takes deep breath to stop the shaking*

Ok, I'm getting that I have to talk to my mum about this issue, & ask some probing questions (& downright nosy, some would say) about whose name the house is in, stuff like that.

Funny, I never really thought about it all til I joined this forum, just presumed things would tick along. It really has nothing to do with me I suppose, but I don't want Mum hitting a wall with all this when the inevitable happens. Its not like anyone is looking at Gran's assets & wanting to get their hands on it, it's just me wanting to preserve what little will be left of Mum's nerves later on.

Thank you so far. I think I'm clearer on the fact that we need to do something about this EPA business, it would appear to be an essential element in caring for Gran properly.

Jennifer, I'm not really 100% sure what the set up is with the bank. I just know that it was agreed it would be of benefit for mum to have a card & one was sent. I need to probe into that too, but I feel so damned nosy asking questions like that of my mum. Whilst I'm trying to help her, I can't help feeling I shouldn't be asking, you know? Just the way I was brought up, but none of us have dealt with any of this before so we don't know what the normal procedure is.


Gill
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[Margarita]

I can't help feeling I shouldn't be asking,

Try not to feel like that , as I know back 5 years ago , I could not of done with all the help I could of got , if my daughter where older at that time like you .

I done it all alone as you can read above , as why I got in to so much mess , TP was new in those days I did find it when in Gibraltar when it 1st Started but I went into a lot of denial life was in such a mess in trying to undertand it all . you sound like a lovely careing person help your mother as much as you can

I was told by bank 3rd parly , does not have a join account
(name)

 

[Gill W]

Hi Margarita,

Thank you for your kind words. I desperately want to help my mum with all this; it would have been my dad she called on at times like this, but sadly he was taken from us in 2000 due to high blood pressure. He was always a rock when times were hard, so I have to take his place for my mum & keep her mind straight.

I've just had a thought (after a bit of brainstorming, my memory seems to have holes in it just lately! ) that mum may have got her card via the "additional cardholder" facility that banks offer with ATM cards & credit cards & such like.

I've made a resolution to check up on all this with her, and risk her upset at my poking my nose in. I consider it has to be done, to avoid lots of trouble at a time when it is least likely to be wanted.

Gill
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[abby]

Oh lord !

I have just read Helena and Margarita's posts re the card and EPA's

During the time the EPA has been in use ( unregistered ) I have been a third party and joint account holder of Dad's accounts, with his written and proven approval ( whether joint or 3rd party depends on type of account ) I have a ' copy ' cashcard. I can draw cash, write cheques, transfer monies between his accounts etc. No probs and banks were / are happy.
As far as I am aware the banks will not authorise such cards / cheque books unless they have been given aurthority to do so fron the account holder.

I have been in your situation recently, infact went into banks and building societies only today with the now registered EPA and its a completely different ball game. New form has to be filled in that negates all previous ' arrangements '

Abby
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[Gill W]

Maddening isn't it?

Not only do we all have to cope with the devastating blow off learning that members of our family are effectively losing their minds, we then have to ride the rollercoaster of help or non-help that's available.

Then we have to think about all the legal aspects, the likes of which I have never had to deal with before now. I'm 36, my mum is 64, and neither of us know about all this sort of thing. I guess we all go through life crossing bridges as we come to them, but sometimes it can be so much more helpful to know what you've to come up against so that you can organise things to run smoothly.

I'm gonna have to think about how I phrase all this to me mum, without freaking her out that she may have lots more to put in place yet, despite having climbed about 3 Mount Everests already.

*takes another deep breath *

I feel a search coming on for EPA........................

Gill
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[Ashburton]

So many issues that I too was not aware of, What happens if accounts are in joint names?