my mum has Alzheimer but is ok at home alone at the moment. my brother and I are worried about the future and care home prices as she has over £50, 000 in the bank . if she gave us some can through council find out and say it was done to avoid payment and can they find out about different accounts if we give them details of one account? please don't think we are being greedy but it's so unfair thanks
finance
- Thread starter Rach R
- Start date
Hello Rach
What you are suggesting would likely to be classified as Deprivation of Assets.
Here's an AgeUK factsheet which explains it - look in particular at section 3
If it was that easy, we'd probably all be doing it, I'm afraid.
What you are suggesting would likely to be classified as Deprivation of Assets.
Here's an AgeUK factsheet which explains it - look in particular at section 3
If it was that easy, we'd probably all be doing it, I'm afraid.
What you are proposing is deprivation of assets irrespective of whether you think the law is fair or not.
To answer your question AFAIK the LA can investigate accounts as far back as they like, they would see withdrawals and if you opened a new for your mum to hide these they could query where the opening balance came from.
If your mum has multiple accounts and you omitted to disclose them all they may see transfers to the undisclosed account(s).
To answer your question AFAIK the LA can investigate accounts as far back as they like, they would see withdrawals and if you opened a new for your mum to hide these they could query where the opening balance came from.
If your mum has multiple accounts and you omitted to disclose them all they may see transfers to the undisclosed account(s).
Can I encourage you to look at this a different way? Having this money gives your mother and her family choices that might not otherwise be available to her. It allows her to enter a home without waiting for long, frustrating social service assessments. It allows her to choose any home that has space and suits her needs without being told "well that's more that the LA will pay, so someone will have to pay a top up" and then you having to fight the LA about it.
I always felt that the advantage of having savings was that we had many more choices and a lot less paperwork and frustration: I could help my mother make decisions (or make them for her) based on what was best for her rather than match a local authorities budget and timetable.
I always felt that the advantage of having savings was that we had many more choices and a lot less paperwork and frustration: I could help my mother make decisions (or make them for her) based on what was best for her rather than match a local authorities budget and timetable.
Why are you worried about care home fees? Yes her savings will be used to pay for her care until she is left with what she is allowed to keep then the LA take over. If she did not have the money then her state pension and private pension along with attendance allowance would be taken off her to pay towards care. Either way she will be contributing to her care as everyone else does. The best thing your Mum could spend her money on is getting good care when she needs it. What use is it her holding onto money and maybe living somewhere that may be lacking in the right type of care. Let Mum use her money to give her the care and comfort she does deserve. Whatever happens she will be left with approx £12,000, it wont all be taken from her.
Any money moved around will have a paper trail and can be traced without any difficulty no matter how intricate the movement is. My knowledge comes from working in a bank for 42 years and not being involved in money laundering lol. Money being taken from her account after diagnosis would certainly be looked on as deprivation and could be made to be paid back.
Any money moved around will have a paper trail and can be traced without any difficulty no matter how intricate the movement is. My knowledge comes from working in a bank for 42 years and not being involved in money laundering lol. Money being taken from her account after diagnosis would certainly be looked on as deprivation and could be made to be paid back.
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My parents saved for their 'old age' so, like Jennifer, I have had no qualms about spending what is after all still my mum's money on the most suitable care for her.
I chose the home I wanted for her and we have had no involvement with social services since 2004 (and that was just for a day centre place). From what I've read on the forum, I see that as a blessing.
My children have been told that I want my savings to be used for my care if necessary ...and they are welcome to whatever's left at the end.
I chose the home I wanted for her and we have had no involvement with social services since 2004 (and that was just for a day centre place). From what I've read on the forum, I see that as a blessing.
My children have been told that I want my savings to be used for my care if necessary ...and they are welcome to whatever's left at the end.
You have other choices, either move in with mum to look after her or she moves in with you, that will delay her having to go into a CH, her quality of life will most likely be better than living in a CH and you don't have to spend her money on CH fees.
MIL has a small amount of savings and a small bungalow with one of those equity loans (in effect a mortgage). Her pension income is adequate to her needs and OH, who has POA, can sometimes top up her savings from excess pension income. With careful consultation with an occupational therapist and AZ Soc outreach worker, plus CMHT nurse and GP, we have over the last 3 years spent quite a lot of her savings on things that make her home safe, comfortable and hygienic to live in:
Why bother to increase the value of her home as a bi-product of making improvements for her benefit? a) making the house attractive means we will get a quick sale and access to necessary funds b) the more of her own money she has the longer she has choices over her care, as Jennifer has pointed out.
I know it is unfair when family members could well do with the money as inheritance. The current shortfall in social and health funding for the elderly was predicted decades ago. In some other countries governments seem to have made better provision than in the UK. We now know that - not only can we not take it with us - but we can't give it to our friends and family either. Not unless we arrange to do this a long time before there is any possibility of our needing state money for care.
Your mum IS allowed to give you small financial gifts on a regular basis, provided this is a long-established habit, at least while she is still living at home and provided that she has the mental capacity to do so. It is well worth seeking advice from the CAB or a suitably experienced solicitor.
I hope this helps. Katrine x
- rebuilding front steps and patio slabs
- handrails up drive, steps and along side of house
- new garden room doors with safety glass
- new double glazed front door, side window and internal glazed door with safety glass
- disconnection and removal of old gas cooker
- moving gas meter (this one was free on safety grounds)
- security camera above front door
- new electricity fuse board in accessible location
- repositioning light switches
- lighting in porch, airing cupboard and loft
- new light fittings in kitchen, bedroom and living room
- completely new kitchen with pull-out storage, dishwasher, electric hob and oven, microwave and fridge-freezer
- regular professional cleaning of carpets
- domestic cleaner visit once a fortnight
- various gadgets: big button phone, simple mobile phone, digital TV, calendar wall clock
- new mattress, pillows, bed linen and towels
- new vinyl flooring in kitchen and utility area
- new living room carpet.
Why bother to increase the value of her home as a bi-product of making improvements for her benefit? a) making the house attractive means we will get a quick sale and access to necessary funds b) the more of her own money she has the longer she has choices over her care, as Jennifer has pointed out.
I know it is unfair when family members could well do with the money as inheritance. The current shortfall in social and health funding for the elderly was predicted decades ago. In some other countries governments seem to have made better provision than in the UK. We now know that - not only can we not take it with us - but we can't give it to our friends and family either. Not unless we arrange to do this a long time before there is any possibility of our needing state money for care.
Your mum IS allowed to give you small financial gifts on a regular basis, provided this is a long-established habit, at least while she is still living at home and provided that she has the mental capacity to do so. It is well worth seeking advice from the CAB or a suitably experienced solicitor.
I hope this helps. Katrine x
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My mum is in a residential home, was paying about £700 a month because she had around £19,000. Then she was left some money when her sister died and now she is paying £2,000 a month. Is it right she is only allowed about £23 a week to spend on herself because she needs much more than this to live the life she wants to live. ie I put money in her a/c at the Home (from out of her Bank) to pay for things like having her hair done, buying a paper every day. I also use her money to buy expensive things like pain relieving gel, and mouth spray, £4 on the Lotto each week, £5 pocket money for her youngest grandson because she always said he wouldnt get as much from her as the other grandchildren had. These are things she has spent her money on for years and I feel she still should as they give her some control over her life even when she hasn't really got any. When she gave up her council house to go into the Home there were also outstanding bills to pay and money to take up all the old carpets, repair holes in walls etc. All this may make her money go down to the permitted £21,500 quicker than the powers that be may expect. Surely she is allowed this kind of expenditure? Should I explain to her she can't do any of this anymore? It will crucify her, she already struggles to come to terms with where she is.
I do agree that it does seem terribly unfair that you can have 2 people in the same care home in identical rooms - one being paid for by the Local authority in full and the other being paid by the resident in full because they were prudent in their life and saved hard and have the means to pay. It does give little incentive to save when its taken off you at the end. I know of people I went to school with who were then and are now bone idle. They've never done a day's work in their lives and live off benefits. They have more gadgets and holidays than I do. Some of them fiddle the system and work and claim. The black economy is still alive and well where I live !! Fast forward 40 years. Presuming I and some of these individuals need a care home. I will be forced to pay my way as I have done all my life whereas my feckless school mates will continue on their freebie lifestyle. Its not wonder the world is so mixed up when laziness is so well rewarded and hard work penalised.
However Rach R this does not help you I accept. There is nothing you can do that it legal and legitimate. Yes you could spend the money on house improvments but then the house would need to be sold to pay the care home fees so you don't see the money anyway. Its my understanding that once someone has a diagnosis that could reasonably be expected to need full time care in the future then its too late to dispose of assets.
My mum was in a care home for a number of months earlier this year. When they were doing the financial assessment and found out her house was in my name they got very interested. I told them it had never been in mum's name and was transferred to me by my Dad in 2000. I had the paperwokr to prove this. There was no whiff of illness in either of them at that point. I was told that once someone reaches a certain age (they wouldn't say specifically) then signing away assets is usually deemed as being done as a means of deprivation of assets.
I know it all seems terribly unfair but the law is the law. Mum has a very wealthy sister. If this sister were to die before mum, mum would inherit quite alot of money. I'd never see it as it would go on care home fees. I could ask my aunt to revisit her will with this in mind but I would feel it very wrong and unethical of me to do this.
Isabella
However Rach R this does not help you I accept. There is nothing you can do that it legal and legitimate. Yes you could spend the money on house improvments but then the house would need to be sold to pay the care home fees so you don't see the money anyway. Its my understanding that once someone has a diagnosis that could reasonably be expected to need full time care in the future then its too late to dispose of assets.
My mum was in a care home for a number of months earlier this year. When they were doing the financial assessment and found out her house was in my name they got very interested. I told them it had never been in mum's name and was transferred to me by my Dad in 2000. I had the paperwokr to prove this. There was no whiff of illness in either of them at that point. I was told that once someone reaches a certain age (they wouldn't say specifically) then signing away assets is usually deemed as being done as a means of deprivation of assets.
I know it all seems terribly unfair but the law is the law. Mum has a very wealthy sister. If this sister were to die before mum, mum would inherit quite alot of money. I'd never see it as it would go on care home fees. I could ask my aunt to revisit her will with this in mind but I would feel it very wrong and unethical of me to do this.
Isabella
I am sad to hear so many people being harsh on Rach R, cos she clearly has only just started to think about the financial aspects, and has initially seen them as unfair. Some of you are also very simplistic in your responses. Here is mine.
Rach R, your mum has some funds, more than many people have. She will therefore be expected to pay the full cost of any care home until her savings go down to £23,250. At today's rate of care home fees, that won't be long. After that, she will have to pay a proportion of the care fees until her savings drop to £14,250. If she owns her own home, this will be taken into consideration for future payments. You don't have to sell it. But mum would be charged full fees, and the shortfall (after deducting her pensions) would be taken as a charge against her home whenever it is sold. You could rent it out, and use the income to contribute to the home fees, less income tax on the rental profits. Or could do nothing and accept that when the house is sold, a chunk will go to the local authority to cover the growing debt. Not all authorities accept this system, so check with yours.
I can see where people are coming from who suggest that there isn't a problem, and that you are very lucky that your mum has savings. The problem I see is that if you choose a home you like, and can afford, when mum's savings are gone, and even when the house money has gone (which might not be a long time), your mum might not be able to stay where she is unless the Local Authority fully fund that place. She might, in fact, have to move to another care home where the fees are lower.
There are "top up" schemes in some LAs whereby if the home you choose is not fully funded by the LA you can pay the difference. Unfortunately you can end up paying the difference for a long time, and this money CANNOT come from your mum, it must come from a family member. It is a regular commitment that is difficult to get out of if your circumstances change.
So I don't envy your situation. I don't pretend that it is easy. Look for a home that suits your mum and ask what will happen when her private money runs out. i.e. Will the local authority pay for the same bed in the same room (my mum's authority would have paid for a different room - a dim and dingy room by comparison with the bright sunny room we were paying for).
But to answer your question, no, you cannot do anything to transfer monies from your mum to you. If she was in the habit of doing so over the past few years, then that could be acceptable. But any sudden transfer of monies would be seen as "deprivation of assets", to avoid paying care home fees, so don't even think about it.
Hope this helps.
Margaret
Rach R, your mum has some funds, more than many people have. She will therefore be expected to pay the full cost of any care home until her savings go down to £23,250. At today's rate of care home fees, that won't be long. After that, she will have to pay a proportion of the care fees until her savings drop to £14,250. If she owns her own home, this will be taken into consideration for future payments. You don't have to sell it. But mum would be charged full fees, and the shortfall (after deducting her pensions) would be taken as a charge against her home whenever it is sold. You could rent it out, and use the income to contribute to the home fees, less income tax on the rental profits. Or could do nothing and accept that when the house is sold, a chunk will go to the local authority to cover the growing debt. Not all authorities accept this system, so check with yours.
I can see where people are coming from who suggest that there isn't a problem, and that you are very lucky that your mum has savings. The problem I see is that if you choose a home you like, and can afford, when mum's savings are gone, and even when the house money has gone (which might not be a long time), your mum might not be able to stay where she is unless the Local Authority fully fund that place. She might, in fact, have to move to another care home where the fees are lower.
There are "top up" schemes in some LAs whereby if the home you choose is not fully funded by the LA you can pay the difference. Unfortunately you can end up paying the difference for a long time, and this money CANNOT come from your mum, it must come from a family member. It is a regular commitment that is difficult to get out of if your circumstances change.
So I don't envy your situation. I don't pretend that it is easy. Look for a home that suits your mum and ask what will happen when her private money runs out. i.e. Will the local authority pay for the same bed in the same room (my mum's authority would have paid for a different room - a dim and dingy room by comparison with the bright sunny room we were paying for).
But to answer your question, no, you cannot do anything to transfer monies from your mum to you. If she was in the habit of doing so over the past few years, then that could be acceptable. But any sudden transfer of monies would be seen as "deprivation of assets", to avoid paying care home fees, so don't even think about it.
Hope this helps.
Margaret
I am so tired of reading on here that people who have not been "prudent" in there lives should not get the same treatment that those who have been prudent, and in the same breath asking for advice on how to avoid paying so that they can keep there parents/reletives money for themselves.
Try being prudent when you are on a minimum wage and every day is a strugle to survive, i now find myself in a position to have more than one holiday a year if i should choose to do so, my funeral is paid for and i owe no one any thing at the end of the day life is for liveing and not for dieing.
You know the old story, every one around the grave and someone says, there goes the richest man in town.
John.
Try being prudent when you are on a minimum wage and every day is a strugle to survive, i now find myself in a position to have more than one holiday a year if i should choose to do so, my funeral is paid for and i owe no one any thing at the end of the day life is for liveing and not for dieing.
You know the old story, every one around the grave and someone says, there goes the richest man in town.
John.
Hi
Sorry if my question derails the thread, but I think thinking ahead - can family members be FORCED to pay top up fees..... or can you just say no. My worry is if we do this for MIL when/if the time comes it will come out of our own savings - ie our own care home fees which we are currently saving for! Hopefully the situation won't arise some savings
Sorry if my question derails the thread, but I think thinking ahead - can family members be FORCED to pay top up fees..... or can you just say no. My worry is if we do this for MIL when/if the time comes it will come out of our own savings - ie our own care home fees which we are currently saving for! Hopefully the situation won't arise some savings
No, no one can be forced to pay for another person's care in part or in whole (unless you sign a contract to that effect).
I hope my comments weren't seen as harsh
They weren't meant that way.I simply found that by regarding my parents' money as theirs to be used in whatever way is needed to provide for them in their old age, rather than viewing it as my own potential inheritance, it has made the whole thing much easier to accept. Their prudence has meant that their modest assets have made it much less stressful for me to manage my mum's care and I thank them for their foresight.
The unfairness of the system is a separate debate; we are where we are and need to deal with it accordingly.
Sorry if people are thinking they way they are - we are not a rich family by any means just a normal working class family. this money my mum has is from when my grandparents died both my parents had a little money left to them and this has been saved in ISA's, my dad passed away 3 years ago so my mum had all his money and won't touch it as it's 'dads money'. I wish she would spend it but know she won't and it does seem unfair, like has been said previously, that as they have saved their money rather than spent it it will all go on fee's, whereas other people will have the care but not have to pay. it has made me realise there is no point in saving any money for old age!
Hi Rach
I also feel it is so unfair but it seems there is not that much that can be done - but you can do some small things to ease your mind.
Your mum can legitimately pre-pay for her funeral now,out of the £50K, rather than out of the £14K she will be left with. I am sure you could find an undertaker locally who would do this.
If you are (and anyone else) is "caring" for her in any way then she can pay them the going rate. The payment would actually have to be made on a regular basis and be visible, but it would help to share the money out a bit.
And I agree about spending some of it on making things more comfortable for her at home and having any work done on this house would be sensible, if she owns the house.
Bear in mind, too, that if she owns her own house and no one else lives there with her then the value of her home is seen as an asset.
JJ
I also feel it is so unfair but it seems there is not that much that can be done - but you can do some small things to ease your mind.
Your mum can legitimately pre-pay for her funeral now,out of the £50K, rather than out of the £14K she will be left with. I am sure you could find an undertaker locally who would do this.
If you are (and anyone else) is "caring" for her in any way then she can pay them the going rate. The payment would actually have to be made on a regular basis and be visible, but it would help to share the money out a bit.
And I agree about spending some of it on making things more comfortable for her at home and having any work done on this house would be sensible, if she owns the house.
Bear in mind, too, that if she owns her own house and no one else lives there with her then the value of her home is seen as an asset.
JJ
Would that be unethical? I'm not so sure.
Depriving your mother of a potential asset that she might get in the future is not at all the same thing as depriving her of assets she actually has now.
The state (under the rules) has a claim on the assets your mother actually owns; that does not include a potential future inheritance.
The sister can leave her estate to anyone she chooses; she has no obligation to pay for your mother's care today, and no obligation to leave money to pay for your mother's care in the event of her own death. If the sister were to reconsider her will now, that would be effectively just a form of tax-efficient planning.
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I think Chemmy has put it more into context than some previous comments. I also feel that any realisable assets belong to the owner of the asset, and should be used to make their lives as comfortable as possible in meeting their needs. I am a bit uncomfortable with the possible heirs having thoughts as to how the money should be spent or conserved for the own ambitions. I hope the feeling of entitlement does not overcome the need to love and care.
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