EPA - Questions

[harvey]

We have recently been appointed joint EPA for my MIL, what a relief! I applied for attendance allowance for MIL and have been told we must now register EPA. In a way I was relieved that the decision was made by anyone other than us, it seems such a betrayal. What I would like to know is; can MIL still sign cheques and receive her bank statements in her name at her address when EPA is registered? My husband currently writes out the cheques, explains who and what they are for and the amount, she then signs them. She can understand the amount in the account and the interest. She is not very good at adding up the sums and sometimes comes to an extraordiary balance, however when we sit and explain, she accepts it even if she does not realise how we came to the total. We have 'wacky' periods and lucid periods and they can roll into one! We do not want to take away the independance of signing her own cheques or recieving her own bank statements. We have not had any accusations of stealing for some time and any financial dealings we do through her solicitor. Although we know MIL has been diagnosed with dementia, it is a big step to take total control of her life and something we really do not wish to do at present, she is almost totally dependant on us but loves to sit in bed counting her money! We are new to the EPA business and although I have scanned the web, not all of my questions are answered. Will ring the solicitor on Monday but thought I would ask fellow TP's if they have any experience. Can anyone help?

Polly

 

[Helena]

Once you register the EPA she will no longer be allowed to sign cheques or get her Bank statement everything must go to and be in the names of the trustees

I presume given your description she has Vascular Dementia as my Mother did and all it may take is another mini stroke and she wont have any comprehension of figures at all

Who insisted you needed to register the EPA ?

Because its not strictly nessecary at this stage .........much better to get absloutely everything organised ......bills put on direct debit etc now then you can send the EPA off to be registered which takes 1 month when of course you wont be able to do much

 

[harvey]

Helena

No idea why we must register now. I think simply because we have submitted the attendance allowance form. We had not intended to take this route until things got really bad. I would rather MIL did not get attendance allowance than have her finances taken out of her control now. We were hoping that her doctor would advise when we should register EPA. She is so difficult regarding money that she will only pay for carers for 3 hours a week. If she had been granted attendance allowance, our idea was for her to have the carers for longer. She is very thrifty with her money and thinks the cost of the carers is far too steep! Had she been granted the allowance, we would have made sure that she understood that it was for extra carers time, she may have accepted this on a good day!

I must assume that if attendance allowance is granted it is because a person is totally incapable of looking after themselves or their financial affairs. I was so stunned when I was told this that I did not think to ask further questions. I did feel a bit silly really as I felt afterwards I should have known

Polly

 

[Grannie G]

My husband gets Attendance Allowance, but his EPA is not registered. In fact he was awarded Attendance Allowance well before we arranged the EPA

 

[harvey]

Forgot to say we do not know what type of dementia she is suffering from. I don't know if she can not count at times or if she does not have the concentration to come to a conclusion. From being very, very active with many interests and hobbies, she now watches the TV for an hour or so a day. That is her only passtime. I have trawled through the posts on TP and she has so many similar symptoms to others but am not sure which type she has. We know she has had this illness for some years and she had a fall over Christmas last year. She said she got out of bed in the night and went dizzy, fell and hit her head and face and does not remember anything else or how long she was on the floor. She suffered bruising. My FIL was alive at the time and she forbade us to call the doctor. It was only after FIL died and we stayed with her for some weeks that we realised just how bad it was. We were at the end of our tether when I discovered TP, I am sure it has saved our sanity! Inlaws have always been very proud and independant, it was only when we called in unexpectedly that we realised that FIL was very ill, we caught him off guard and he eventually agreed to see the doctor. There may have been other incidents that we are unaware of in the past concerning MIL. MIL flatly refused the doctors advice to attend memory clinic and we can only get her to the doctor by saying it is time for a review of her medication. Then I feel guilty for telliing her fibs.

Polly

 

[harvey]

Granny G

Many thanks for your reply. Why would I be told that it must be registered? Like this awful illness everthing is so confusing

We are mere novices but have learned an awful lot from TP. Mostly that we are not on our own and although it was a shock at the beginning to see MIL behaving the way she does, it is not just us and we have it fairly easy at the moment

Polly

 

[sue38]

Hi Polly,

I think being eligible for attendance allowance has nothing to do with registering the EPA. Eligibilty for attendance allowance may be for any number of reasons and not necessarily mean that someone is incapable of managing their financial affairs.

I agree that you should speak with your solicitor and see what s/he says particuarly as s/he has personal knowledge of your MIL.

 

[harvey]

Sue

many thanks, I don't feel such a twit now

Will worry about registering EPA when we have to but pleased to know we do not have to do it now. We did feel relief that we would not have to make the move ourselves regarding EPA registration but even more relieved that MIL can carry on signing her own cheques etc.

Polly

 

[Skye]

Hi Polly, the others are right, AA is nothing to do with EPA, or financial affairs. It's awarded when someone needs help with everyday living, so that they can pay for that help. It could be washing, dressing, housework, shopping etc. To get the higher rats, you also have to need help at night.

It's not means tested, and you don't have to show what you spend the money on. I don't understand why you were told you had to register the EPA, unless it's to do with access to the account the AA will be paid into. But I've never heard of it happening.

 

[harvey]

Hazel

I am puzzled why I should have been told this as I had asked for the allowance, should it be granted, to be paid into MIL pension account. As this was a telephone conversation I will wait and see what happens and also speak to solicitor on Monday.

She is unable to leave the house without us as she also has curvature of the spine. It was not until I began to fill in the form that I realised just how much time we spend caring for her. We must be leaving a huge 'carbon footprint' travelling backwards and forwards!

Polly

 

[jenniferpa]

The one thing that I think may have happened that the pension service (or whoever it is that adminsters AA) may have asked for a nominee (not the right word but can't think of it at the moment ) in order to manage the AA. I know they did ask for one in my mother's case, wouldn't accept me becasue I was overseas, but were quite happy with a friend of hers. As it happened she never had to do anything,

 

[Helena]

Harvey

Given her symptoms I would 100% say its Vascular Dementia as a result of a series of mini strokes ..........you are simply telling the story of my Mother all over again

I applied for AA for her months after i should have done and certainly was not required to register the EPA

At first they paid the AA into the account i specified but then 2 months later they paid it with her pension and insisted it was on cost saving grounds when i phoned them

Being tight with money and saying everything is too expensive plus having large amounts of cash in the house are all symptomatic of the disease

I can trace back at least 5 if not 8 years and despite several phone calls to her doctors the only time she had a scan to diagnose the VD was when she was admitted to hospital with pneumonia

I think if you really look carefully her finances are a mess with any savings languising in old accounts paying 0%

" I cant be bothered " is the typical excuse
"I want my affairs private " is another

 

[harvey]

Helena

Although we would like to know the type of dementia mum has, she would never agree to go for tests. She says she knows there is something wrong with her, that things are not right and that she forgets things, but said she does not want to be reminded of it. She is happy for her money to be in banks/building society and likes to see the interest. She is aware of the balance and interest total but we have to add up the combined totals for her. She would have no idea about different interest rates and it would take a braver person than we are to try and explain.

She does obsess about money and tells us she is saving. We take her shopping and she the trolley is filled with food that she does not need. We sometimes manage to persuade her she does not need 8 packets of garlic bread and she knocks it back to 4!

We think that part of the reason she thinks the carers are expensive is down to feeling guilty that someone is doing the work she has always done. She feels that she should be doing it. Although she is ill and frail, will not accept that it is too much for her and exhausts herself trying. We were hoping that if the allowance was granted we could persuade her that the government were paying for the carers and perhaps she would have them more often. Getting over the guilt thing will be a different matter.

We feel that we would rather not register EPA until it is absolutely necessary and only after doctor/solicitor advice. At the moment we try to explain every move we make regarding her affairs and she is mostly quite happy with the way we do things. Out of the blue on a bad day she will accuse us of trying to control her and force her into decisions. We decided long ago and told her so that any decision about her affairs must be hers. Up to now we have managed to ride out the storms by explaining over and over again what we are doing and why we are doing it. We still feel that we are unable to do things she does not want us to do, even when we feel it would be in her best interest. Role reversal, when we were growing up and our parents told us it was 'for our own good' comes to mind

Polly

 

[SteveS]

Can I just ad that DWP has no authoirty to "suggest" EPA - this can be talked about with care professionals, solicitors and the like, unless of course EPA was mentioned on the application form, the DWP would maybe ask if an EPA is in force to administer the benefit payments.

DWP is part of a Government organisation who provides benefits for those who are entitled to them - not to give advice on such a legal matter as they have no expertise to give advice.


I work, as you may guess, for a different part of DWP, and as a manager would be very worried that you reacted (as a vulnerable carer) to such a suggestion without first gaining appropriate advice from a professional.

As a "customer" I'm appalled sometimes at the attitude some call centre operators adopt, and they above all, must take care when they address circumstances with carers.

sorry, off my soapbox......

I would certainly talk this over with health care pro's and /or your Solicitor.

take care, and best wishes

S

 

[Helena]

Harvey

Fully appreciate your predicament and have heard same things from my Mother

However what must be renembered is she made an EPA for just this scenario

The whole point of making an EPA is so that when you are no longer really capable of running your own affairs you have appointed trusted attorneys to do so

Buying 8 Garlic breads you dont need etc is NOT BEING capable of running your own affairs
Your Mother KNOWS something is wrong just as my Mother did but their stubborness wont let them really admit it
and the muddle they can get into IMHE happens very fast indeed

If you live close and can keep things in check and cope with the non stop explanations fine but if like many you live a distance away sometimes its nessecary to hit things head on and make them realise you are simply trying to make things easier

Theres no reason why you should not get AA but I trust you have not understated the severity of your Mothers difficulties because sadly you need to complete such forms using WORST DAY scenarios

 

[harvey]

Helena

Stubborness has always been a problem with her, although she has always denied it. We live about 20 minutes away and are over there several times a week. She appointed us joint EPA recently so we are still gettting used to the idea that we may have to register in the future and the fear of her wrath when we have to. Money is her main concern, not the lack of it but trying to hold onto it all! Her favourite passtime is thinking about it and how she can save more. Everything has to be 'good value' (cheap to you & me) or she will not buy it & everything has to have a value on it. After FIL died she wanted to sell just about everything in the house as she said she had no money!! I think she just wanted the cash in her hands. She obsesses about money all the time and has told us that we are not to even think about managing her financial affairs without her signature! She is unable to leave the house without us so my husband takes her to the bank when she needs cash for shopping. I am happy to leave her in charge of her own cheque book & bank books until things get really difficult. If we took that away from her she would never forgive us. If we point out problems she gets very tetchy but thinks about it overnight and if the phone rings early in the morning (sometimes before 6am) we know she wants to have another pop at us!

Reading some of the posts on TP I know that after the initial shock of realising that MIL has a problem, we do have it a lot easier than most. We are going through a quiet period at the moment. Not sure if that is down to going along with most things she comes out with, we have learned to agree with her unless it is going to cause a problem somewhere else.

Polly

 

[Helena]

Polly believe me just one year before she died you and I would be talking about the exact same woman
My Mother was still driving till June 2006 when DVLA stopped her and in March when she got DVLA questionaire the phone was red hot

However we then found out that Electricity bills etc went unpaid , pension cheques uncashed,no house insurance , MOT etc

Freezer full of "red label"reduced food that she hated and would never eat anyway
If we took her shopping she only headed for Reduced counter
She was paranoid about money and that we could not have it
Tried walking around with all her bank books in her handbag
The pile of unread correspondance was 3 ft high ............thats when in July i physically had to fight her to extract the EPA and took away everything financial

It was end of Sept before I got things straight and was able to send off EPA to be registered, Oct she was found collapsed with pneumonia and end of Nov she died

The biggest beneficiary of all this was the Chancellor in IHT

All of which could have been avoided if she had also signed the Trust papers 10 yrs previously when she did the EPA
Oct she

 

[harvey]

Steve

Yes one of the questions asked if we had EPA and it was when I rang regarding the copy asked for, that the lady who answered the phone told me we must register it. I was a bit shocked as we had not even thought of doing so. We do nothing regarding MIL finances without advice from doctor/solicitor so would have taken their advice on this also.

This business is like being lost in a fog not knowing where the right path is.

I also have a soap box which I bring out regularly!

Thank you for your advice & info

Polly

 

[harvey]

Helena

You got cut off!

Yes MIL carries her bank books around in her handbag. MIL & FIL made mirror wills in such a way that IHT would be at a minimum. When FIL died earlier this year everything was in tip top order down to the fact he wanted to be cremated. Building Society account in his name only covered the legacies (with a bit spare) to grandchildren to be paid on the first death to minimise IHT. MIL was distraught as she said it was up to her to say who got what. 'Could not remember' making her will, even the solicitor reminded her and showed the notes taken at the time. Bank books taken to Solicitor for probate and listed. Then the bank book with FIL name on disappeared! Still cannot find it and after months of investigation it has now been declared a joint account after threats from the solicitor to bring in the Financial Ombudsman. Without the book solicitor can not challenge the building society. The legacies can not now be paid in full. No amount of explaining will persuade her that FIL did this for tax purposes. She just sees the balance figure and says it is all hers. As my husband and I do not benefit from the FIL will it will not affect us, however I am so frustrated that FIL had arranged everything only for his wishes to be disregarded. We now realise that he was aware of MIL condition and had been for some years. He like us let her have her own way for a quiet life. Had he known what would happen he would have ensured we were appointed EPA before he died for both of them. MIL has always been such a strong character. She was unaware of the bank book in his name only and this convinced me that he did it for a reason.

Polly

 

[Margarita]

jenniferpa
The one thing that I think may have happened that the pension service (or whoever it is that adminsters AA) may have asked for a nominee (not the right word but can't think of it at the moment ) in order to manage the AA. I know they did ask for one in my mother's case, wouldn't accept me becasue I was overseas, but were quite happy with a friend of hers. As it happened she never had to do anything,

yes , best thing to do is send EPA to DWP state pension , AA , any privet pension she may have ,so they have proof that you are handling all her finances and you can talk to them on the phone , get in on they system . then your have no worry about data protection act and can talk to DWP , also if later on in the future you want her money pay in to different account then her .

Also take MIL with you to her bank and show then EPA and get EPA on they system

As my got lost , but I organized all the above first thank- God before I lost it , so did not have to worry about EPA registering EPA

Helena The whole point of making an EPA is so that when you are no longer really capable of running your own affairs you have appointed trusted attorneys to do so

The whole point of making an EPA is so that when you are no longer really capable of running your own affairs

No its not , because anyone can get an EPA even with sound mind , as in if my son go away abroad and he wants me to handle his finances with bank as he own his property want to rent it out while his abroad , any issue he has with bank I can sort it out for him or sell house for him , if he wanted me to . as long as we go to bank together get it on they system

the only different is when my mother gave me her EPA solicitor ask if she wanted to add that if she became mentally incapable the EPA was still Valid , mum said yes
and
solicitors told mum and I to get EPA so I can help mum sale her home , we never new at the time of getting EPA that mum had AZ .