DOLS tribunal

Lavender45

Registered User
Jun 7, 2015
1,607
0
Liverpool
Evening everyone.

I'm a bit of a worrywart, but I'm concerned and I'm hoping someone has experience of a DOLS tribunal.

The situation is that my mum was sectioned last year for more than 6 months due to her physical and verbal aggression. Despite trialling many drugs no combination was found to totally calm mum and she was discharged to an EMI nursing home specialising in challenging behaviour along with a 1 to 1 initially from 8am to midnight, reduced to 8am to 10pm as mum actually sleeps.

Mum took pneumonia shortly after going into the home and was really quiet and drained of energy for a while. She's still immobile, but her aggression is slowly returning with threats made to her 1 to 1s and scratching and trying to bite.

When the DOLS assessor visited mum she noted that mum demands to go home and therefore she was not able to put a 12 month DOLS in place. Instead we have to go to tribunal to establish what is best for mum and and as her representative I am meant to voice her wishes.

It's true mum wants to go home, but it's not that simple. Mum's actual home is with me in a house we jointly own. The home mum wants to go back to is her mum and dad's home, she talks about them constantly as though they haven't been dead for many years. I've played along with this for ages rather than saying they are dead, but this may have reinforced the idea that going back to her mum and dad is possible in her mind.

Mum was sectioned because she was violent towards me at home. She tried to strangle me, she came at me with a knife and on another occasion a hammer. In hospital she tried to strangle a nurse and a fellow patient. She's unpredictable with no discernable triggers. Mum returning home would not be safe.

If the tribunal went in mum's favour what happens next? Has anyone had this happen? I love my mum, but I don't want to be in a position were it's just me and her at all. Mum has 117 funding. Would 24 hour a day care be put in place, or would I be left with 4 care visits a day as seems the norm for many people?

I cannot believe that I'll have to stand in a tribunal arguing that mum should be able to return home as it's her voice I'm meant to represent not mine. I'm just praying mum loses the tribunal! I cannot deal with mum at home. She needs the specialist care she receives. It's far from perfect, but I cannot imagine managing with her behaviour at home once again.
 

Amethyst59

Registered User
Jul 3, 2017
5,776
0
Kent
I’m afraid I have no experience of this, but am ‘answering’ to bump your post up. It seems hard to believe that you are expected to be your mum’s advocate and argue against your own best interests. Crazy system. I hope someone with some experience of this, sees this post.
 

pjapril

Registered User
Oct 22, 2017
77
0
Hi I'm not sure if it helps but I am also currently awaiting a DOLs tribunal as mum constantly says she wants to go home. She was admitted from hospital to the care home after all the assessments etc but like your mum says she wants to go home so only a 3 mth DOL was put in place whilst they have the tribunal which they have to do. Having asked why relentlessly I have give in many cirlcles. The local authority are arranging for mum to have an independent advocate as both my sister and I have said we are only trying to do what is right by the medical advice and they said we couldn't be at the hearing to represent mum for that reason so maybe that could help you?? One of the many assessors who has been to see mum (18 page report later) says she is absolutely in the right place but still this hearing has to take place and there is a back log so can take up to 3 months. Just like you we keep asking what on earth would happen if she was successful at the tribunal... and they keep telling us this is highly unlikely ... and that the judges are well trained in the hearings for "I want to go home ". Here's hoping ....
 

pjapril

Registered User
Oct 22, 2017
77
0
P.s - for DOL tribunal, legally, your capacity to "decide" is irrelevant as is any power of attorney. Case law and judgements of the supreme and European court say that the hearing will have to happen. The persons views are taken into account regardless of their capacity when it comes to depriving a person of liberty - but the safeguard is all the independent assessments that are also placed before the tribunal by the local authority.
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
I would contend that being an advocate for your mother doesn't simply involve repeating what she has said she wants. It also involves interpretation of her needs at this time. So I think it is actually necessary that you make the point that while she expresses a desire to be 'home' it is quite clear that the home she is thinking about is her childhood home with her parents in attendance. Further, I would also explain that before she had dementia she wouldn't have dreamed of being violent in this way, and would be mortified if she caused harm to anyone, so restricting her is necessary to ensure she doesn't do something she wouldn't consider doing if she was well.

I do have to ask though - a dols order wouldn't be necessary if she was still in hospital under section. Has anyone explained to you why, when she is still effectively in that position, dols needs to be invoked? I suspect that it does, it just seems illogical that a person who is detained under the mental health act wouldn't need dols while that same person, still effectively detained (and having such detention paid for under 117) does.

Also you say advocate. Do you mean personal representative? An advocate is usually a professional in these situations.

I'm whistling in the wind a bit though. I would strongly suggest that you contact our helpline to get some actual information rather than simply guesses.
 

Kevinl

Registered User
Aug 24, 2013
6,050
0
Salford
Just tell them that if she's sent home you'll walk away, get on the M62 come and stay in my spare room if you like and let them get the idea that you're prepared to let it all goes A over T's, call their bluff in short, see what they say then.
I've had the knives and scissors waved in my face and two teeth taken out with a tin of beans, much as I love my wife I'm not going back to that again, in what world do the victim of domestic violence get told they are getting the violent person sent back to them, like it or not?
Personally I wouldn't even go to the meeting just send them the house keys and tell them to get on with it, let them sort it out, just threaten to walk away.
I never knew that someone under a Section 3 needed a DoLS when under Section 117 funding, if that change in my wife's "status" ever happened no one told me, possibly the nursing home did get a DoLS but I don't know, I've never been told that or asked me to go to a meeting.
As I understood it someone under Section 117 is in the care of the state so they may have asked social services but no one ever asked me.
Spare rooms free if you want to call their bluff:)
K
 

pjapril

Registered User
Oct 22, 2017
77
0
Just for info - from the court of protection website -

217,235 applications for DoLS assessments were received by local authorities in the year ending March 2017, an increase of 11 per cent on the previous year.
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
Just for info - from the court of protection website -

217,235 applications for DoLS assessments were received by local authorities in the year ending March 2017, an increase of 11 per cent on the previous year.
Actually, I find that reassuring. It's what is supposed to happen.

Like Kevin though, the fact that she's under section makes me wonder.

Mind.org.uk has a lot of detailed info on sectioning.

Edit: although I'm currently getting a 404 error on their search.
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
Hmm Mind says that you must have 6 assessments that all must be met one of which is

An eligibility assessment to confirm that you are not detained under the Mental Health Act 1983 or subject to a requirement that would conflict with the Deprivation of Liberty Safeguards. This includes being required to live somewhere else under Mental Health Act guardianship.

I would think your mother had been detained under the 1983 act and thus dols is not applicable.

https://www.mind.org.uk/information...act-2005/deprivation-of-liberty/#.WkxMaTNOnqA
 

Pete R

Registered User
Jul 26, 2014
2,036
0
Staffs
Also you say advocate. Do you mean personal representative? An advocate is usually a professional in these situations.
The Relevant Persons Representative is normally an unpaid relative/fiend but if their wishes are different to the person detained, as in this case, then a paid Advocate (IMCA) is normally appointed. In a dispute like this an advocate can be appointed for both parties.
 

Pete R

Registered User
Jul 26, 2014
2,036
0
Staffs
I cannot believe that I'll have to stand in a tribunal arguing that mum should be able to return home as it's her voice I'm meant to represent not mine.
That is why an Advocate would be appointed as you and your Mom's views are different. You are still allowed to have your say in what you believe are the best interests of your Mum. I think it would be very unwise to do as @Kevinl suggests and boycott the hearing. You need to be there to put on a united front with the professional that seem to be thinking the same as you. I doubt there will be anyone there arguing with you.


I'm just praying mum loses the tribunal! I cannot deal with mum at home. She needs the specialist care she receives. It's far from perfect, but I cannot imagine managing with her behaviour at home once again.
I am sure you are correct and that the tribunal will agree with you. When a DoLS is challenged in this way there has to be tribunal to affirm that your Mum is not being detained unlawfully.

:)
 

Pete R

Registered User
Jul 26, 2014
2,036
0
Staffs
I never knew that someone under a Section 3 needed a DoLS when under Section 117 funding,
Even though someone still has a mental illness they may not actually be receiving "active" treatment for it and can therefore be discharged from the Sec3. If this happens then their continued detention would change from the MHA to the MCA and DoLS.

This does not mean that Sec117 Aftercare is stopped as that can only happen if the mental illness is no longer there.
 

arielsmelody

Registered User
Jul 16, 2015
515
0
I think the most powerful argument against your mum coming home from the local authority's point of view is going to be financial - make it very clear that you can't be involved in your mum's care or supervision and that they will need to provide 24-hour care for her protection and for your own.

You are in genuine danger of domestic violence if she comes home. I can't imagine that they would sensibly recommend that she returns, but if that looks possible I'd visit a solicitor to see what your own options are.
 

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
25,018
0
South coast
I would make it very clear that the home she wants to go back to is not your home and that going back to that home is not an option as it now belongs to someone else. I would also say that going back to your home is not an option either and that even if she were to, this is not what she wants.