Does anybody have experience of an Attended Hearing at COP??

[LYN T]

This is so terribly hard for you-I'm very so that you and your Mum are going through this horrible experience.

Contact Social Services - for two reasons; 1- they maybe able to organise a sitting service for your Mum on the day you attend court, and 2 if they hear your Mum saying she will kill herself if she is taken away from you perhaps they will write a statement to that effect.

Who are these 'interested parties'? -friends of your sister, or relatives? Are their statements based on hearsay or are they stating that they have witnessed something?

Love

Lyn T XX

 

[In a Whirl]

A couple of thoughts.
1. If the Judge does not have time to read everything its not your problem.

2. You have dealt with this all before & learnt from the experience.This time round it will not be so hard as you know what to do & have time to get it organised. So take a deep breath.

3.From what I can gather the COP is almost always concerned about a vulnerable adult's best interests. eg Your Mum's physical & emotional wellbeing so make sure you get that aspect covered.

4. Try to be objective, & back up what you say with evidence if you can. Try to get as many independent reports as possible such as from Social Services

5. Consider asking your Mum whether she would like to tell the Court what she feels by way of a video. Just a thought. She has a right to be heard too.

Above all have faith in yourself.

 

[Pickles53]

Just an additional comment on point 1....

One reason the judge has all the papers beforehand is so that the key issues can be identified and then the hearing time can be used to focus only on the vital points. He/she will not necessarily want to go over every single sentence during the hearing.

And he/she will make sure there is enough time to read the papers thoroughly....that is their job and they will do it conscientiously.

 

[care2share]

Hello tryingmybest. Was just wondering, does mum have continence and mobility? If so, I think I would try to take her. Despite having been deemed to lack capacity, would she be given the chance to speak? If given the chance, would she say the right things?

 

[tryingmybest]

The thing is, Mum has not been formally assessed. It is only my sister who is saying this and asking for a deprivation of liberty order as she is saying Mum doesnt have capacity to decide where she wants to live or who she wants to see. A former doctor has completed a COP3 to say he believes Mum may have dementia and may not cope with dealing with financial affairs but he has only been fed this by my sister and he has not said anything else relating to any other care needs or capacity. It is not a formal diagnosis. Her current doctor has written a letter to the judge to say that whilst Mum did not gain a very good score on a short test she had last week (Mum just freezes up at the doctors anyway and gets upset - always has done), she definitely had the capacity to alert me to being financially abused by my sister and certainly has the capacity to say she wants to remain with me and that the doctor feels my Mum is very happy with me, well kempt and calm and the love between us is very obvious. I hope that letter will be helpful in the judge making the decision.

I think this is an interim hearing to establish where Mum should live and there will be another hearing to discuss Finance, Health and Welfare.

Mum would fall to pieces in a situation of being in court so I really would not want to do that to her.

Surely the Judge will not put my Mum back into a home with my sister where she was being financially abused? I cannot believe that.

I can't tell you how ill this is making me feel and as much as I try to keep a lot of this from Mum, she sees me crying and not sleeping and its affecting her too. How could anyone do this to us?

Incidentally, the other people who now have sent in supposed "evidence" are the son and daughter of my Mums late partner and one of my sisters daughters. Its not evidence at all only lies and nastiness about me which is all completely untrue. Even saying that I didn't encourage Mum to go to her late partners funeral (she was in hospital at the time with low sodium levels and a uti as well as extreme grief). I attended and represented her. Also accusing Mum and I of not even sending flowers but we spoke about it and instead sent a donation to the RAF Benevolent society to help other people and this person knew that full well but has lied on his forms to the court.

They have all conspired against me and tried to make out I am the villian in all of this to try and deflect from what they have done regarding the financial abuse as the son is also suspected of fraud from my mum as he somehow managed to get a £60,000 cheque from her whilst her partner was dying in hospital!!

Its all totally unbelievable that people could be like this to my beautiful, lovely Mum.

Im just dreading these four people in effect ganging up on me in court and the Judge believing them.

 

[theunknown]

I'd be really surprised if a court supported your sister applying for 'deprivation of liberty'. There are safeguards in place and I don't see how she'll be able to get what she wants through the way that she's doing it. It doesn't matter what her so-called witnesses say, the court will put your mum's welfare first and presumably be wise to the fact that people may lie and cheat. Our justice system as far as depriving people of their liberty is concerned is founded on habeous corpus. Even just locking somebody in a room for 10 minutes may be considered illegal if it's viewed as unlawful imprisonment. A deprivation of liberty occurs when 'the person is under continuous supervision and control and is not free to leave, and the person lacks capacity to consent to these arrangements'. I found this on an alzheimers website but shamefully can't remember if it's this one or another . With the facts available on here I can't see any way that your sister would be able to get court approval to decide this.

Also, it seems that it's extremely difficult to become a deputy for health and welfare. There needs to be specific circumstances for this to happen. Basically, the deputy is acting as a deputy for the court, so although it's a lot more convenient for an agreed named person to act as a deputy as far as paying bills, fees, etc are concerned, rather than the CoP, it's a different ball game for making decisions about the care and treatment of someone else. Your sister is presumably not qualified to do this.

Good luck.

 

[care2share]

Hello tryingmybest. As far as I know, a dols can only authorised when the person is in a hospital or care home, at least that's what it says here in my OPG609 booklet, (page 12). I was also wondering if your mum is able to put pen to paper to make a witnessed Advance Statement plus a note from her GP to say she has the capacity to do so, to say where she would like to live before it gets to court. I'm not sure your sister will be available for looking after Mum anyway. She could be looking at a custodial sentence if found to be guilty of anything too serious.

 

[tryingmybest]

Thank you for your replies. I really dont understand why the judge has decided to go through with this attended hearing for an interim order re where my mum should live and who she should be allowed contact with. There is no evidence of my.mum lacking capacity. Its such a nightmare and I'm so afraid my sister will get what she wants as she is so convincing when she lies and can be so devious and manipulative. I'm sure I will be a crumbling wreck and be totally incoherent when questioned. I just really cant face it. Mums doctor has written a supportive letter saying how happy and well looked after mum is and she certainly has got capacity so I hope this will hold up in court. I certainly could get mum to write a statement and get a neighbour to witness it if that would help.

I would hope that the judge would not give financial deputyship to my sister when I've sent copies of bank statements clearly showing the extent of the fraud?

I also had heard its unusual to get a health and welfare deputyship and I dont see as mum lives with me how that could work anyway especially as mum doesn't want contact with my sister after all that's happened.

The trouble is my sister will find some other way to cause as much trouble as she can if she doesn't get what she wants from COP and I'm frightened for mum and I as she will stoop at nothing. Shesvalready paid a solicitor to write defamatory letters to social services and other organisations about me.What will she do next?!

 

[canary]

"What will she do next?! "

Take it one step at a time TMB.
Its no good trying to look too far into the future and second guess every possible thing.
Just concentrate on getting through this.

BTW, deciding whether or not there is capacity is the main thing that the court will do. If your sister hasnt submitted any evidence for loss of capacity then she wont get CoP. There is a form that has to be filled in by a doctor or SW to say that she has lost capacity and it has to go with the rest of the application. I am surprised that the case has got to court without it.
She was also supposed to serve your mum with notification that she was applying for CoP and send a form back to CoP to say that she had done so (I know because I had to do this with my mum). I assume this never happened.

I think that getting your mum to write a statement and having it witnessed would be a very good idea. The letter from the GP will carry a lot of weight.

 

[tryingmybest]

Canary, she didn't notify Mum and she also didn't notify me. I found out from the police this was going through and they said to fill in the forms and object. I requested a copy of the application from COP and was horrified it wasn't just finance as I had been told by the police but health, welfare and Deprivation of liberty to decide where she lives and who she's allowed to speak to and have contact with!!! There has been a COP3 form completed by a doctor who says he thinks she has dementia and may not be able to manage her finances (he would have been fed lies by my sister to do this) but nothing about her having no capacity to deal with anything else in her life!! It wasn't a formal diagnosis, only a normal GP who doesn't have any qualifications to do this as I checked him out. Its just ridiculous its come this far. I don't think the judge has read anything I've sent? Also I dont understand how a judge can decide when he's never met my mum whether she has capacity or not at a hearing especially when theres my sister and her cronies' sitting there telling lies and I'm the only one there telling the truth and who knows my mum inside out! Xx

 

[Saffie]

I do think Pete R is right in saying that your mother attending court and saying where she wants to live and why would carry weight with the judge. However, I can quite understand that it would be difficult for her to attend and I know she might crumble on the day. So, do think about the advice to get a SW, GP or anyone else in authority to witness her saying this and to send this to the judge. It should be your mother's wishes that carry the most weight.

It is good that her GP has written to say that in his opinion she has capacity for things other than managing her finances. Quite honestly, that applies to many older people, even without dementia!

Do attend - and good luck. x

 

[tryingmybest]

They have said Mum is not to attend. She doesn't want to go anyway and it would be too much for her with the journey and the upset.

I have to take her to the hospital today so may pop in and see if the SWs are in their office re them witnessing a statement from her although they have interviewed her on several occasions prior to her coming to live with me as to where she wanted to be. However to be honest they have been pretty hopeless as I had been telling them for 7 months of how unhappy my mum was before coming here and of how she kept telling me she was being financially abused and they did nothing.

I am concerned of how/if they will present their report to COP and if they will be present at the hearing. If they do it correctly all their evidence will link in with mine but I'm not holding my breath of any support as they don't seem to know what they're doing and are always on holiday or off sick and keep saying they have no experience of this type of situation or of COP procedures so I'm really worried. Xx

 

[jan.s]

Oh TMB, this doesn't get any easier for you and how I feel for you. I do understand exactly how you feel, but be sure that, whilst SS may not have come across this situation, the judge will be very much aware of the legal issues. He will have read what you have said, and all of the other documentation in the case, but he cannot make a judgement before the case comes to court.

Remember, from the judge's viewpoint, he has both of you making accusations against each other and he needs to ascertain what is going on, and decide what is in your mum's best interest for the future.

My advice to you is to try to remain calm, something I know is so difficult when you're worked up about such an important issue, in a daunting setting. Remember, the judge is human too, and in my limited experience, he treated me very differently to the professionals (solicitors and barristers). He (or she) will know that you are in a situation that is something you are not used to, and will make allowances for that. He will also realise that the outcome affects your vulnerable mum.

It's not a bit like the courtroom scenes you see on TV!!

Thinking of you.

 

[tryingmybest]

The situation is hopeless and I'm so low tonight. Mum had a hospital appointment and afterwards I thought it would be a good idea to pop into social services office next door to find out if they'd done their report for the hearing and to confirm who would be attending. I was told they were not doing either. They have no opinions and don't want to get involved. I feel my mum has been totally betrayed and let down by the people who are meant to be protecting her.

Theres no hope now without their input. No hope and no justice. Mum has again said she will kill herself if forced to go back to my sisters and so will I so these people will have that on their consciences.........cant tell you how hopeless I feel. Sorry.

 

[Saffie]

That is indeed a cruel blow and surely a dereliction of duty of care. I understood that they had already sent a report to the court. Would your mother's GP not help?
Alternatively, could you contact a solicitor who might make a report based on what you mother says in front of him?

I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with this process and am quite likely talking rubbish but it does seem such a sad thing that your mother's views are not being taken into account here. x

 

[cragmaid]

I don't believe that the SS can say they don't want to be involved.....they already are and I'm sure that any court would demand that they follow up on their previous input. Even if they don't want to add to what they've submitted, they can't unsay it and the Court may subpoena their evidence.
How about asking Mum if she would be prepared to take respite care for a couple of days to cover your trip to London......that way she will be safe and secure and you wouldn't have to worry about her?

I think that the Courts may ask for an idependant capacity assessment on behalf of your Mum. They may well need to send someone to talk to her.....but unless an assessment can prove that she is mentally and physically capable of making the trip, make sure they go to Mum and not the other way round.

No I'm not saying make things awkward to Mum or the Courts, but it will demonstrate that you have her health and welfare at heart.

This will pass in time and you will be able to sit with Mum and enjoy your time together.

 

[tryingmybest]

No SS hadn't yet sent anything, just a request to cancel last hearing in order to prepare something as we had been given such short notice. I feel so let down by them. How could they not have an opinion? How can they think its ok for mum to be returned to the daughter that committed the most heinous of crimes - stealing vast amounts of money from a vulnerable person? How can they think its ok to let my sister remove mum from my life and not ever allow me to see her again is right? How can they think its suitable for her to become a deputy for all her financial affairs in the light of the financial abuse? And how can they also think its ok for her to be in charge of her health and welfare and not involve me in anything? Its totally incomprehensible and beyond me. They kept saying it was alleged fraud but no I have all the statements to prove it but they dont want to even look at them. Everyone seems to believe the abuser and I'm being made out to be the villain!!! A huge miscarriage of justice is the phrase that comes to mind.

 

[Saffie]

I thought you had the police on side. I do hope so as that will help.

 

[tryingmybest]

No the police are not getting involved in the court hearing. They have said the investigation is on hold until this is sorted. Seems bizarre way if doing things to me?!

 

[jan.s]

It is a very stressful time, and I can see how you're coming to your conclusions, but the court hasn't made any decisions yet. Let the process go ahead; you say you have the evidence to prove the financial abuse, let that do the work for you.

You have provided statements to address the accusations made against you, let the judge deal with them.

I am sure that the court will ask for a report from SS, because everything has to address your mum's best interests.

Sending you support at this very tough time.