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doa

overgage

Registered User
Mar 9, 2015
1
What are the consequences of doa? Is it a criminal offence? Who decides if it has been committed?
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,448
When you say doa, do you mean deprivation of assets?

If so it really depends on how the person who should have those assets were deprived of them. If fraudulently yes the person who did this could expect to spend some time explaining themselves to the police. But I suspect you are talking about a situation where the person in question actually chose to deprive themselves of these assets. If that was the case, no, it's not criminal but they could be considered to still hold those assets. If they have been passed to a family member I have heard of the LA chasing the family, but ultimately, if you had, say £50K and handed over £30K to someone, the LA might well take the position that you actually still had those assets and expect you to pay accordingly.
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,448
Kevin - I think that link is a very good explanation of deprivation.

I think it's also important to remember that if a person disposes of assets to avoid paying for care, it's not a victimless thing. Yes the LA will be paying but you know what? The people who ultimately pay are taxpayers (be it national or local).


Something that overgage asked that I don't think either of us addressed is: who decides? Initially it will be the LA. If there is a dispute then either an ombudsman or the courts.
 

Pickles53

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
2,474
Radcliffe on Trent
I think it's also important to remember that if a person disposes of assets to avoid paying for care, it's not a victimless thing. Yes the LA will be paying but you know what? The people who ultimately pay are taxpayers (be it national or local).
Thank you Jennifer for saying that. Totally agree.
 

marionq

Registered User
Apr 24, 2013
6,103
Scotland
I'm awfully glad we're talking assets here and not Dead On Arrival. That was a noir film of the fifties. Good one too.
 

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
12,627
South coast
I'm awfully glad we're talking assets here and not Dead On Arrival. That was a noir film of the fifties. Good one too.
Im awfully glad you said that marion, because to me DOA means dead on arrival too and I couldnt work out what the OP meant......... :eek:
 

Hex

Registered User
May 24, 2014
15
Newcastle Upon Tyne
Thank you Kevin for that link. I think it justifies my dilemma right now. I have joint LPA for my mum along with my SIL who because of locality is named career. I set up all of mums direct debits and organized her assessment to have her care needs addressed. She had a financial assessment and I asked about the amount of savings that would affect her award. I was told they wouldn't look at anything under £23,000. All was good, until recently. She moved to an extra care complex where she is very happy. All this time my SIL has been getting her money from the post office, getting her shopping and every now and again making a deposit into her bank account. I suspect she has been very generous to herself but with no actual proof I was never going to lose any sleep over it. The bills are covered and everyone was happy. Because of her move she will be due a new financial assessment. This is where it gets tricky! I changed all of mums DLA and DWP payments to go straight into her bank account. Both me and my SIL have debit cards and now I can account for each transaction. My brother called me and said mum has too much money in the bank and we should get rid of some of it! I said it would be fraud and because his wife and I had signed a document to say we will look after mums health and financial business that we would be liable if it was discovered. They then got another brother to talk to me who is in agreement with them. Incidentally mum doesn't have too much in savings as they insist the amount is £16,000.
They way I explained this to them was...If mum did have too much the worst that would happen is she has to pay more to the LA. And so long as she is cared for and happy that isn't such a bad thing. I have upset my brothers and my SIL isn't speaking to me now. What to do? Who to talk to? Thankfully mum is oblivious to this.
Syl


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sue38

Registered User
Mar 6, 2007
10,854
52
Wigan, Lancs
Stick to your guns, you are in the right. If a deprivation has been deemed to have taken place your mum will be treated as still having those assets, so it wouldn't achieve anything.

If your mum's assets/savings are above £14,250 she will be required to make a contribution to her care costs.

Where a resident has £23,250 or less but more than £14,250, assess the resident's ability to pay in the normal way and take into account, as weekly income, £1 for every complete £250 or part of £250 over £14,250. This is called "tariff income". Regulation 28
A tariff income table is at Annex B

Examples
1. The resident has £14,750 capital. The £500 above £14,250 is counted and a tariff
income of £2 is taken into account as income.

2. A resident has £18,100 capital. The £3,850 above £14,250 is counted and a tariff income of £16 is taken into account as income.

N.B. Tariff income is meant to represent an amount that a resident with capital over a certain limit should be able to contribute towards their accommodation costs, not the interest earning capacity of that capital.
Where capital is taken into account and a tariff calculated the actual interest earned will not be treated as income, to avoid double counting in the financial assessment.
If the interest is not drawn and therefore increases the capital value of the asset, it will be treated as capital in future reassessments.
From CRAG
 

Katrine

Registered User
Jan 20, 2011
2,839
England
Has your mum already got a funeral plan? If not, then this is a legitimate expense and would bring her savings down a bit.
 

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
12,627
South coast
Has your mum already got a funeral plan? If not, then this is a legitimate expense and would bring her savings down a bit.
Good point. If Mum only has about £16,000 in savings, then a funeral plan will easily bring it down to under £14,250.
 

Quizbunny

Registered User
Nov 20, 2011
110
As this government have now made it possible to get hold of your pension and blow it all on world cruises and flashy cars, will this result in deprivation of assets actions being taken in the not too distant future?
 

Hex

Registered User
May 24, 2014
15
Newcastle Upon Tyne
Katrine, I have purchased a funeral plan for her. I figured it would give me some breathing space until I can get some proper advice.


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Hex

Registered User
May 24, 2014
15
Newcastle Upon Tyne
Canary, I am not to bothered about mums assets going over the limit. The way I see it is, so long as she living comfortably and is happy then why the fuss? My brother has a really slanted view about the government and not letting them take anything but really! They gave it in the first place!


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Pickles53

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
2,474
Radcliffe on Trent
Guess that depends on the person's state of health at the time they decide to spend it. If there is no reason to believe that the person is likely to need care in the future, I can't see that could be argued as DOA.
 

Beate

Registered User
May 21, 2014
11,993
London
As this government have now made it possible to get hold of your pension and blow it all on world cruises and flashy cars, will this result in deprivation of assets actions being taken in the not too distant future?
I am guessing only if the person was aware they might be needing care in the not too distant future.

I've always wondered what classes as an expensive holiday though. World cruises of course but what about specialised holidays for people with dementia like Revitalise or Dementia Adventure? They are not cheap cheap, though they are actually subsidised to a degree, but nursing care or bespoke packages come at a price. Seeing that in a lot of cases it's the only holiday some people can take, would that be taken into account if the council looks at holiday expenditure?
 

katek

Registered User
Jan 19, 2015
191
I am guessing only if the person was aware they might be needing care in the not too distant future.

I've always wondered what classes as an expensive holiday though. World cruises of course but what about specialised holidays for people with dementia like Revitalise or Dementia Adventure? They are not cheap cheap, though they are actually subsidised to a degree, but nursing care or bespoke packages come at a price. Seeing that in a lot of cases it's the only holiday some people can take, would that be taken into account if the council looks at holiday expenditure?
Would we not be almost becoming some sort of 'police state' if people start getting accused of DoA for daring to spend their own money on their choice of holiday, if they are unfortunate enough to be ill? I sincerely hope it never comes to that.