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Difficult situation with parent and family

T1000

Registered User
Feb 3, 2022
106
0
Dear @T1000

I have read through this thread and there has been a lot of helpful advice given. However the lovely people here are perhaps a little shy sometimes about spelling out some brutal points to consider, one especially. My comments from here onwards are meant with the best of intentions regarding you and your beloved mother.

1) You need to do a harsh analysis in your own mind about your relationship with your sibling. You are doing a wonderful caring job, the sibling is frankly part of the problem not the solution. This far and no further on loans, or claims your parents owe monies without real proof they do. Have you considered your sibling is a grown adult, but behaving with a child like sense of entitlement. Has the sibling considered the financial loss to your mother when it comes to care home costs most likely needing to be paid in the future?

You sound a lovely person, doing a very tough caring role. Time to bluntly tell the sibling the nature of your caring role, the very likely need to have to pay for care in the future. Ask where their concern is for mother’s welfare. I am sorry to say but your sibling really needs to wake up and smell the coffee. Do not fret over upsetting them, your role is caring for and protecting your mum as well as you can. Whilst caring for my own mum my two siblings were rocks of support to me, sometimes a little slow understanding how the illness was progressing. Looking back that was my fault as I took on the caring role fully, trying to allow mum to live as well as could be with gathering dementia, enjoying her time with them as largely as it always had been. Only as things got worse did they inevitably see dementia in its dreadful full colours. But they never failed to help me, particularly during the long year of COVID shielding before mum died. Your circumstances are very different and I suggest kindly a time has come when lines must be drawn, truth told, etc. As POA it goes with the role. Sorry that might sound harsh, but it is said with yours and your mum’s best interests in mind. When dementia arises it can bring the best out in family members, but also unfortunately the worst.

2) You indicate your mum may well go into a care home later this year. Let me try and save you some emotional pain. You have helped your lovely mum stay independent over recent years, which has involved sacrifices for you, your partner and child. That cost cannot go on being increasingly paid. The strains and emotional stresses will become to much. I cared for my mum for six years but it was a simple choice. I loved her but most importantly I had no partner or children to be concerned about. My choice, my responsibility and I was previlidged to care for my wonderful mum.

You have other demands to consider which complicates matters, but only up to a point. You have said yourself a line in the sand is approaching. Now here is some well meaning tough love. When your mum goes into care, no guilt feelings are allowed. Sadness yes, but not guilt. You have done really well getting this far. Your mum will be safe, her growing needs met. You can visit and return to the role of a loving, not care specific daughter. You will look out for her ongoing financial interests, that all is well in the care home, but day to day caring will end. You slipped into the caring role, now you can step back to a degree, relax knowing your mum is being looked after and as I say embrace being a daughter more fully again. Also get back to being a full time partner and mother. Please understand I am not criticising your current efforts on that front. Your caring role, reading between the lines, is straining you to breaking point. Tired, stressed, etc, other roles in your life are suffering through no fault of your own. There is a book written to guide carers called “The 36 hour day”. The title says it all.

Finally if ever you have moments of guilty feelings ask a simple question. Who cared for your mum, made sacrifices, fought her corner, etc, you or your sibling. Who demonstrated love as opposed to a sense of entitlement. Deep down you know the answers. Hold onto them. I close in hoping my words are accepted as direct but well meaning advice. I had bleak moments in my caring role, all carers do.

We need to stick up for each other, offer advice and support,etc, and this forum is great at doing that. It got me through many issues in my caring role, somewhere there was always a positive and helpful voice. When mum died I walked away for a while. TBH I was emotionally, mentally and physically very badly run down. I have decided in recent months to drop by from time to time. Whenever I see a carer struggling with the demands of the role, I will try and offer positive advice. Others helped me, now it is my turn where I can.

Hope my words can help in the coming months. My very best wishes for your future. Remember an old saying said to me by another carer in a care support group. You are part of the solution not the problem. In years to come you can look in the mirror and remember you did your very best for your mum and family. I suggest your sibling will find that rather hard to do.
Thank you so much, and I am so sorry to hear about your mum. That must have been so hard on your own and I am glad you had some support, though they do not know what the day to day is like truly do they.

I find emotional support my biggest need, which friends and hubby end up providing. Any physical support by sibling A is limited as they need to 'work' and have 'alot they are dealing with in their life'. I have in the past clearly emailed information on deprivation of assets, the need to untagle sibling A finances from mums, esp as it's all been done since her diagnosis which sibling B agrees with and supports. I have provided all the info, explanations, they are simply incapable of looking at it from the perspective of her needs, because they feel hard done by and the money is slipping away from them. I have tried to rationalise with them about how much pressure I am under with several years caring for mum day to day plus work etc but last time I tried to convey this in person it resulted in their agression again and mum was present plus my son. It's not worth it and I have now sadly had to prevent coming here as they are incapable of restraining themselves and see me as some sort of enemy, responsible for why they are angry.

I don't think I can convey how much this means today and the support yourself and others are giving at such a hard time. Today definitely feels worse, I have been attacked and sibling B has stepped in but not wishing to stir sibling A anger any further. I have also ensured all my communications are short and neutral. I think I will need to put something together on email that very clearly states no expenses can be incurred on mums behalf without my permission which will likely anger further. Then next month she is in respite for a week while we take a much needed hol, again I have handled most of that for her but it's worth it. She did not enjoy it much at the trial, as it's not the same as home, but is ok with going there 1 week. After that needs must for a home and I hope she can retain her independence still as she has started going out again since lockdown and could still have a life. I desperately want to get that quality time back where I am not worrying all the time nor having to fight these battles. Thank you so much everyone, I just need to take each day at a time right now.
 

Whisperer

Registered User
Mar 27, 2017
318
0
Southern England
Thank you so much, and I am so sorry to hear about your mum. That must have been so hard on your own and I am glad you had some support, though they do not know what the day to day is like truly do they.

I find emotional support my biggest need, which friends and hubby end up providing. Any physical support by sibling A is limited as they need to 'work' and have 'alot they are dealing with in their life'. I have in the past clearly emailed information on deprivation of assets, the need to untagle sibling A finances from mums, esp as it's all been done since her diagnosis which sibling B agrees with and supports. I have provided all the info, explanations, they are simply incapable of looking at it from the perspective of her needs, because they feel hard done by and the money is slipping away from them. I have tried to rationalise with them about how much pressure I am under with several years caring for mum day to day plus work etc but last time I tried to convey this in person it resulted in their agression again and mum was present plus my son. It's not worth it and I have now sadly had to prevent coming here as they are incapable of restraining themselves and see me as some sort of enemy, responsible for why they are angry.

I don't think I can convey how much this means today and the support yourself and others are giving at such a hard time. Today definitely feels worse, I have been attacked and sibling B has stepped in but not wishing to stir sibling A anger any further. I have also ensured all my communications are short and neutral. I think I will need to put something together on email that very clearly states no expenses can be incurred on mums behalf without my permission which will likely anger further. Then next month she is in respite for a week while we take a much needed hol, again I have handled most of that for her but it's worth it. She did not enjoy it much at the trial, as it's not the same as home, but is ok with going there 1 week. After that needs must for a home and I hope she can retain her independence still as she has started going out again since lockdown and could still have a life. I desperately want to get that quality time back where I am not worrying all the time nor having to fight these battles. Thank you so much everyone, I just need to take each day at a time right now.
Dear @T1000

Just hang on in there. Towards the end of caring for mum I just reduced my scope in life to whatever I was confronting that moment, no thought of the future, try and blank out what happened yesterday. I loved my mum very dearly and recognise the situation we ended up in was due to her illness, compounded by COVID lockdowns. Mum was an innocent victim who just needed my love and support. TBH I am angered when I read about people like your sibling. Can they not get beyond their sense of entitlement and grasp that it is all about the loved one with dementia and their needs. I guess not is the answer. We are all different But I can look in the mirror and know I did my best with the cards dealt to me by fate.

It will be hard but try that limiting of your horizon and it might help you. Your mum, your partner, your child, your present bubble as regards home. Just hang on and when this is all over you can move on with no feelings of guilt, you would not have let your mother down and can face any mirror. Your sibling will have to face and own his failings as a son and brother and deep down he will feel it. A last bit of good meaning advice. When this is all over cut all ties with him. You have nothing to lose in doing so and a lot of emotional peace to gain. Dementia is so unfair to the loved one with it, but also the carers around them. If only somehow politicians could be made to stand at its ground zero, they would realise financial demands are only part of the issue carers face. The emotional hell in many ways is worse.

Picture yourself in future holding a grandchild, going to a university graduation open day for your child, etc. Give yourself that one special image and hold onto it in the darker moments you are facing. A glimpse of better times to come and they will at some point. Best wishes.
 

T1000

Registered User
Feb 3, 2022
106
0
Thank you, that's made me teary thinking about all those things in the future. I have today sought advice from Alz society again and will mention it to social worker again too that it's worse now. I feel guilty sibling has placed themselves in this position and think I need an assessment of mum's capacity to see how things are, as I am in the middle of it, cannot see clearly perhaps. Though I know for sure the loans are inappopriate and sibling has funds so doesn't need loans from her, walking to the ATM with her for more cash was upsetting for me to learn about and thankfully I had set a limit or more would have been taken I fear, so in some ways it protected sibling too.
The expense spend has now been agreed between us, maybe it's for the best but they will claim every bit of cash they can for it and I feel their motives are not 100% but I can't prove this as they are doing it on 'mums behalf'. I guess I will wait to see what the final bill is.
I deperately need a break and am very thankful things are calmer today and for the help here.
 

T1000

Registered User
Feb 3, 2022
106
0
Hi everyone just an update, I think we will l be getting the social worker to come and discuss, and mum can discuss any concerns or things she doesn't understand. Alz society were super helpful and said I was doing the right thing, it feels incredbly hard and divisive right now but perhaps as Whisperer says it'll be more when I look back that I see it all clearer.
 

T1000

Registered User
Feb 3, 2022
106
0
Hi all can I ask your thoughts please. We need to sell an asset for mum abroad. Sibling A has a reason to visit that place personally anyway to tie up some personal aspects. Now that mum's asset needs selling, sibling A is wanting a fully expenses paid trip, which we have agreed to. However on top of that they are stating they want their time off to be paid for, as they have used up all their holiday this year. Have explained that charging mum for time is not something that would be seen as justified. They are holding us all over a barrel on this as no one else would find it as easy to do.

Where do I stand? Do I just have to pay the requested 'time' on the basis the asset may yield more for her if sold? It may not even sell, but I am hoping if it does and even all the expenses are paid inc time, it may still pay for at least 4 weeks care home when the time comes.
 

jugglingmum

Registered User
Jan 5, 2014
6,305
0
Chester
Each family is different and it does depend on what the overall family circumstances are including your mum's finances.

So when I cleared my mum's house I travelled a round trip of 400 miles and stayed in a budget hotel and I took the costs for this our of mum's funds.

To kickstart the process I took a week (3 days) off work unpaid and with the agreement of my brother took the equivalent to my net pay from my mum's funds as this left me no worse off. I paid a childminder which I would have paid if I worked so I didn't take this as my net pay would have covered this otherwise. This way I was no worse off.

My brother came with me for 2 of these three days but as he was unemployed he wasn't out of pocket so he didn't get any money.

My brother was then meant to carry on with clearing the house but 6 months later when he had done nothing I went down on a Wed night and spent the Thursday (a day I don't work) clearing the house on multiple occasions. I had to pay my childminder on the Thursday which I wouldn't normally have done so I took this cost out. But as I didn't work on a Thursday I didn't take any money for that as I had not lost financially.

I have sometimes used holiday for taking mum to appointments etc, although most of the time I have managed to use overtime I am owed (I can only take it back as time anyway) and I haven't taken any money for this. As my children were 8 and 12 when this started I wasn't prepared to eat into my time with them by using holidays to deal with things for mum.

If your sibling is dealing with her own affairs as well then I would think a split of expenses would be reasonable, as would a split of the lost pay between your mum's costs and her own.

As she seems to have had the costs of travel paid when she is going for her own purposes I'm not sure she should get all her lost net pay (ie after tax and NI deducted) as well.

I'm not sure if they are asking for lost pay or charging a rate far exceeding this.

If you keep conceding to this sibling they will keep asking for more so a line has to be drawn somewhere.

My mum has been in sheltered extra care for the last 8 years and this has been paid out of her income. She is now moving into a care home and this will start eating into her assets but she will be self funding for a long time so I don't expect to need to produce bank statements etc as she won't need a financial assessment.

If your mum is likely to move into care shortly (I think you've said this) and will only be self funding for a short period the LA may well request bank statements going back several years and then you would need to explain any expenditure. I think they would query these sort of payments and you would need paperwork to support their calculation.
 

T1000

Registered User
Feb 3, 2022
106
0
Hi thank you @jugglingmum , it helps to read someone elses' experience. Yes sibling went on a fully paid trip last year for this asset, a sale was agreed, but sibling and mum then decided to cancel the sale. Now it still needs selling, and though I have no evidence, I do believe sibling has various loose ends to tie up out there so is looking to take a second trip. But this time they want paid time off too, a day rate. They have taken so many loans, and been very much focused on the loss of access to mum's pockets recently. This is being taken out on me as I am acting as a new barrier they have not experienced. I have since found out they also took a photo of her bank card around a week ago.

Mum is ok financially and can cover several years worth of care home if needed until council funding steps in.
So do I just give in, and how do I justify that cost of siblings day rate ( which they are trying to charge in full but would be minus 30% tax and NI)?
 

T1000

Registered User
Feb 3, 2022
106
0
@jugglingmum just to add, also sibling has thousands and thousands in funds abroad, so I guess I am stuck on them saying they 'need' to charge a day rate here in UK
 

Shedrech

Volunteer Moderator
Dec 15, 2012
12,133
0
Yorkshire
As you are Attorney, I'd contact the OPG and put the situation to them... an email would mean you could show their response but it will take a few days to receive a response
 

Jaded'n'faded

Registered User
Jan 23, 2019
3,190
0
High Peak
Hi thank you @jugglingmum , it helps to read someone elses' experience. Yes sibling went on a fully paid trip last year for this asset, a sale was agreed, but sibling and mum then decided to cancel the sale. Now it still needs selling, and though I have no evidence, I do believe sibling has various loose ends to tie up out there so is looking to take a second trip. But this time they want paid time off too, a day rate. They have taken so many loans, and been very much focused on the loss of access to mum's pockets recently. This is being taken out on me as I am acting as a new barrier they have not experienced. I have since found out they also took a photo of her bank card around a week ago.

Mum is ok financially and can cover several years worth of care home if needed until council funding steps in.
So do I just give in, and how do I justify that cost of siblings day rate ( which they are trying to charge in full but would be minus 30% tax and NI)?
That's a bit worrying. I hope they are not planning to use her card details for their own benefit. Presumably you now have access to all her accounts so you'd know if the card was misused?

Just want to add that your dear sibling is a complete pain in the bum...
 

T1000

Registered User
Feb 3, 2022
106
0
Thanks @Jaded'n'faded it's causing no end of stress. Re card, only found out as mum mentioned it to me a few days ago that a photo was taken same day sibling took her to ATM for cash wishdrawal. She wants to cancel the card but I am sure sibling would not be so daft. Yes I do keep tabs on the app closely, more for her spend, and also set limits thankfully on ATM a while back which prevented more from being withdrawn thankfully by sibling. Only reason I won't cancel it for now is they are due to use it on her behalf if they take this trip. As of yesterday insistence is still on them being paid for the days off, which I could only understand if you really had no money but this is not the case.
 

silkiest

Registered User
Feb 9, 2017
636
0
Hi @T1000, I would be very wary of giving your sibling anything up front. How can you guarantee that this money will not disappear into the "joint" account in that country. He has to pay living expenses anyway so he shouldn't be re immersed for them. I would look at repaying him the cost of the flight and any reasonable expenses ( when you see proof of amounts paid) once the money has been placed in your mums uk bank account. Otherwise you could end up loosing a lot of money from your mums funds.
When my husbands sibling comes to visit and "help" we do not pay travel expenses from the USA but we do use MIL's funds for a hire car for the whole period as she ferries MIL around, and prior to MIL having to sell her car it was insured for SIL. MIL also pays for a meal for all of us to go out together (including her) as this is what she always did before the Alzheimers.
 

jugglingmum

Registered User
Jan 5, 2014
6,305
0
Chester
Only reason I won't cancel it for now is they are due to use it on her behalf if they take this trip
Why are they using it on her behalf? This isn't legal if she isn't present and could cause the bank to freeze the account if they became aware. Overseas transactions always create flags on accounts anyway.

Did they take a photo of cvc number on the back as well.

I personally would be tempted to report the card as stolen and put a fraud alert on the account.

I don't think the general sibling problem is going to go away until they have been forced into a corner over it all. They will keep trying to find ways to get money.
 

Lorna44

Registered User
Jul 16, 2016
228
0
Surrey
I work for a bank and the card can only be used by the person named on the card. You cannot use a card on behalf of someone else, it breaks the terms & conditions. The only way round this is if there is an LPA registered and the attorney can have a card in their name.
I would cancel the card and order a new one. Can't he use his own card and keep receipts so that he can then claim back?
 

MartinWL

Registered User
Jun 12, 2020
2,029
0
65
London
If this "asset" in a faraway country, is a property, are there no estate agents in that country who could manage the sale for you? Is it really necessary for a family member to travel to this country to deal with the sale of this asset?
 

T1000

Registered User
Feb 3, 2022
106
0
Hi sibling claims they have no cash and is in debt here, I have no way of verifying it, but I do know they work full time and have plenty of funds abroad inside mums account that they do not want to touch
 

T1000

Registered User
Feb 3, 2022
106
0
I work for a bank and the card can only be used by the person named on the card. You cannot use a card on behalf of someone else, it breaks the terms & conditions. The only way round this is if there is an LPA registered and the attorney can have a card in their name.
I would cancel the card and order a new one. Can't he use his own card and keep receipts so that he can then claim back?
Hi sibling claims to have 'no funds' so needs flight and car hire etc paying upfront. They keep debt intentionally due to divorce process, to show how poor they are.
Anyway the point is moot now as they insisted on being paid for time off which I have had to refuse.
They now hold myself and other sibling over a barrell as this forces us to try and sell the asset. Thankfully there is no rush.
They have agreed with mum to use the card for a gift for a grandson but I think that is all that will be done. I am though going to cancel the card and arrange a new one.
 
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T1000

Registered User
Feb 3, 2022
106
0
If this "asset" in a faraway country, is a property, are there no estate agents in that country who could manage the sale for you? Is it really necessary for a family member to travel to this country to deal with the sale of this asset?
Hi no in Europe and yes would require travel to move it's location, only a few thousand Euro but worth selling
 

T1000

Registered User
Feb 3, 2022
106
0
Why are they using it on her behalf? This isn't legal if she isn't present and could cause the bank to freeze the account if they became aware. Overseas transactions always create flags on accounts anyway.

Did they take a photo of cvc number on the back as well.

I personally would be tempted to report the card as stolen and put a fraud alert on the account.

I don't think the general sibling problem is going to go away until they have been forced into a corner over it all. They will keep trying to find ways to get money.
Yes exactly, this is the end of a very much free run of being tied into her finances and leaning on her for decades, but they are in their 40s now and finding this very hard to swallow. They have immense funds abroad, but tell her they are skint here, and all because funds are being hidden inside mums acc abroad. They have fought me on trying to separate the finances and not helped by mum agreeing to more loans last year to 'help them out' not accepting that sibling could move funds to UK on their app but wish not to. I have managed to unpick that side of things almost completely with lots of resistance and spite aimed at me esp as I put it all on email. Now that their time won't be paid for the trip, sibling will not go, and has reduced calls with mum and doesn't take her out much and she is of course saddened but won't accept sibling behaviour is not normal. Last time they saw her was for a coffee and a coincidental trip via ATM on the way back, plus taking pics of her card.
 
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