Diagnosis advice and firearms concern

[Holty91]

Hi,

I have an elderly grandad (90 years old) that I believe is showing signs of dementia. The signs I am seeing are forgetfulness and false accusations of theft towards my dad and older brother, however there may be some other signs that I haven't witnessed to date. He lives with my grandma in a farmhouse on a rural plot. We haven't suggested to him that he should have an assessment for dementia yet, as he's very stubborn and we know he will be in complete denial.

Over the last 12 months he's become increasingly untrusting and accusatory towards my dad and older brother, accusing them of theft from around his property. Over the weekend, my brother visited him and he again accused them of theft and went on to suggest that if my dad ever went onto their property again, he'd "shoot him". My grandad owns firearms and associated licenses, he's held them for years as living in a rural property on a farm they've been granted for rodent control. Although his words were likely a figure of speech, we've become concerned that this may in fact soon become a legitimate intention.

I'm considered reporting the incident to the police and requesting that the local police firearms department revoke the license and confiscate the firearms, however I don't want to cause further escalation of what I believe is mental deterioration, and potential aggression towards my grandma if he believes she may have contacted the police.

What do I do? How do I go about getting a GP to assess for dementia if someone so stubborn won't comply, and what do I do about the firearms situation, without causing the backlash that could affect my grandma?

Thank you in advance

 

[nellbelles]

Hello @Holty91 and welcome to DTP
I would be most concerned if a member of my family with Dementia had access to a firearm, I’m sure that if they felt pressured enough they would be capable of using the firearm with no thought to the consequences..
I would talk to some family and get their opinions..

 

[Weasell]

Have you heard the saying ‘ you may as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb’?
I would be tempted to get the family to go in one day and remove the guns.
They are already being accused of theft, so ‘give a dog a bad name’.
Could someone not think of a reason for a family celebration in a pub or anywhere that will remove him from the property for a while?

why would I give such unconventional advice ? because in a perfect world if you report to the police, they would prepare a risk assessment of how any action would affect those in the property? Will it happen? I have my doubts ?
The police work to policies and procedure, do these include ‘love lies‘ which is what the situation so requires?

I alway think of dementia as being very ‘tidal’ if he has access to the guns
when the tide is in I have no doubts at all to his ability to use the weapons.

You can’t fire a weapon that is not in your possession.

Remember if you rely on professional intervention and they make a mistake they just make a heart rendering statement at a later date saying ‘lessons have been learned’

Many people solve the problem of the diagnosis by contacting the GP and getting them to contact the person for a well man ‘ consultation’.

This advice is worth its weight in gold ‘compassionate communication’

Compassionate Communication with the Memory Impaired

The following piece was posted a while ago on DSF and made a big impression on me. It is something I have referred to time after time and tried hard to follow. We have many new members who may not have seen it before. Yesterday I posted it on another Thread but thought it might be helpful if...

forum.alzheimers.org.uk

For homework I set you to investigate
Sundowning.
Capgras syndrome
conflabulation.
Dementia hallucinations.
Host, hostess syndrome

Not because I am diagnosing but simply to understand what the dementia brain is capable of.

 

[LizzieM]

Threatening to shoot someone may be a figure of speech but you cannot be sure, what is certain is that it is still an uttered threat to another persons safety.
Contact the local firearms officer first thing tomorrow, they will have dealt with this situation before.
If family are able to go in and remove firearms the guns are not being held or secured correctly - this is against the law in itself; step in for the firearms officer. He/she could ‘drop by’ for the licence review.
If family members were to remove the guns then they would have to have licences themselves to hold those firearms.
If your grandfather is storing/holding his guns correctly then he will have the keys to the gun safe and he should not have told or revealed to anyone where those keys are concealed so you may have family members in the house unable to remove the guns anyway.
Do not delay in contacting the firearms officer and advise your grandfather’s doctor that is what you are doing (a doctor has to have signed in the first place that someone is in a fit state of mind to hold a licence to hold a firearm) - your concerns are serious.

 

[Bunty2410]

Hello
From what you describe your grandfather is a potential risk to others with his erratic and threatening behaviour. His access to firearms makes him potentially dangerous to both himself and family. I don’t think you have any other option but to discuss your concerns with his GP and the police tomorrow. You would be doing the right thing. Good luck

 

[MartinWL]

I agree with others here that there is no way members of the family can take the guns as they would need a licence to do that and that really would be theft as well as a firearms offence. You have to involve the police. However could you try and get the police to pretend that you had nothing to do with it and it was just routine? You want to preserve your relationship if possible.

I have had the more common issue about driving - a car can be lethal - but I had not thought of firearms. Dementia is unpredictable, take no chances.

 

[Countryboy]

Hi,

I have an elderly grandad (90 years old) that I believe is showing signs of dementia. The signs I am seeing are forgetfulness and false accusations of theft towards my dad and older brother, however there may be some other signs that I haven't witnessed to date. He lives with my grandma in a farmhouse on a rural plot. We haven't suggested to him that he should have an assessment for dementia yet, as he's very stubborn and we know he will be in complete denial.

Over the last 12 months he's become increasingly untrusting and accusatory towards my dad and older brother, accusing them of theft from around his property. Over the weekend, my brother visited him and he again accused them of theft and went on to suggest that if my dad ever went onto their property again, he'd "shoot him". My grandad owns firearms and associated licenses, he's held them for years as living in a rural property on a farm they've been granted for rodent control. Although his words were likely a figure of speech, we've become concerned that this may in fact soon become a legitimate intention.

I'm considered reporting the incident to the police and requesting that the local police firearms department revoke the license and confiscate the firearms, however I don't want to cause further escalation of what I believe is mental deterioration, and potential aggression towards my grandma if he believes she may have contacted the police.

What do I do? How do I go about getting a GP to assess for dementia if someone so stubborn won't comply, and what do I do about the firearms situation, without causing the backlash that could affect my grandma?

Thank you in advance

Once the Police firearms Licensing Unit knows a person with a gun licence has been diagnosed with Dementia or Depression and holds a firearms licence / certificated they will take it away immediately No ifs or buts they will take it away on the grounds that person cannot be in possession of firearm / shotgun without danger to the public safety or the peace.

The also say you have 21 day to appeal their decision in Court but to be honest it would be futile to try

 

[Holty91]

Hi All,

Thanks for responding, I am going to speak with the local firearms licensing unit in the morning and see what advice they can give - hopefully they'll have dealt with a similar case previously and will know how best to approach the situation.

 

[Weasell]

I sincerely wish you well today.

The problem I think you will encounter is from the police perspective he is just an elderly gentleman who the family THINK has dementia

The police have to use discrimination law, and age is one of the categories covered.

He could have a urine infection, thyroid problem or vitamin deficiency and not have dementia at all.

I really hope they have lots of solutions for you, but I have a long shot idea that might be worth something if you feel you are not receiving all you want.

The doctor could book a brain scan for him. No pre amble about ‘what is the name of the queen, which will just tip him off.
The doctor could explain that when people reach ninety the scan is required.
The brain scan would provide the evidence needed.

This is unlikely to happen, for a number of reasons. But it would certainly be more likely if proposed as a ‘multi agency approach’!

 

[MartinWL]

@Weasell is right that the cops will have to beware of equality legislation here. They will need hard evidence that may be difficult to come by. Unfortunately that might have to come from someone who has witnessed him using threatening language, which will be damaging to family relationships.
This whole area needs legal reform, whether it be driving a car or owning a gun, a crossbow, or some other way in which a dementia patient with or without a diagnosis poses a danger to innocent people. There needs to be compulsory surveillance of some sort that doesn't require the family to take the blame and probably an upper age limit on driving and owning weapons.

 

[Duggies-girl]

Hi @Holty91 I know nothing about guns but I suspect that your father owns a shotgun or similar if he lives on a farm. Could his ammunition be replaced with blanks or would he notice the difference. Just a thought.

 

[Weasell]

Hi @Holty91 I know nothing about guns but I suspect that your father owns a shotgun or similar if he lives on a farm. Could his ammunition be replaced with blanks or would he notice the difference. Just a thought.

I had thought of this one!
One potential problem is if there was an incident and armed police turned up while he was waving the weapon around then he could get shot !

 

[Weasell]

I had thought of this one!
One potential problem is if there was an incident and armed police turned up while he was waving the weapon around then he could get shot !

Also what he he had a secret drawer of ammo no one knew about?
It would be just my luck to say ‘ ok shoot me grandad’ knowing the gun was loaded with blanks and end up with a nice big hole in my tummy.

 

[canary]

Doesnt the ammunition have to be locked up with the guns?

I knew that guns had to be locked up, but I didnt know that the key had to be hidden. Can he still remember where the key is? Has he hidden the key really well, or does anybody else know where it is - if so, maybe they could re-hide it

 

[jugglingmum]

I think the ammunition needs to be locked up with the gun, and only the licence holder must know how to access them, which implies the key is hidden.

 

[Weasell]

Doesnt the ammunition have to be locked up with the guns?

I knew that guns had to be locked up, but I didnt know that the key had to be hidden. Can he still remember where the key is? Has he hidden the key really well, or does anybody else know where it is - if so, maybe they could re-hide it

Love the idea !
The simple solutions are often the best ones.
I have cut and paste this from a USA ? web site.
It just made me think of the farm setting.


This question comes up regularly.

All you need to do is use a little common sense and not advertise where you hide the spare. Mine is on a nail behind a beam where no one, not even my eagle eyed wife, would find it.

The other is on my key ring in my pocket. When I go to bed it's in the draw beside my bed along with my wallet and watch. One must balance key security with practicality.

 

[Shedrech]

Hi @Holty91

Also what he he had a secret drawer of ammo no one knew about?
It would be just my luck to say ‘ ok shoot me grandad’ knowing the gun was loaded with blanks and end up with a nice big hole in my tummy.

Please do not consider replacing with blanks as they can still harm and close up can kill

And don't risk any escalation should such a threat be made ... walk away and allow time to calm down .... don't engage in any way; no explaining or discussing or arguing as in that heightened state of mind that will only lead him to fixate and become more agitated (that's how it was with my dad)

Has anyone spoken with your grandma .. she may well be wanting to find a way to get help

Write to his GP with notes on the changes you see and your concerns about his behaviour ... it's flu season and hopefully your grandparents will go for a flu jab ....if the GPS knows family are worried they may then be able to carry out an assessment telling him it's simply part of a general health check

Why not call the Support Line to talk this over with an advisor

Dementia Support Line

If you need dementia support, we’re here for you. Get personalised information, support and advice by calling us on 0333 150 3456.

www.alzheimers.org.uk

And Admiral Nurses are there to support carers

Admiral Nurse Dementia Helpline

Call or email our Dementia Helpline/Alzheimer's Helpline for reassuring and practical advice from our specialist team of Admiral Nurses.

www.dementiauk.org

 

[Countryboy]

If you own a Shotgun obviously a licence will be issued from the Police so they can come to you home at any time to check (a) the Gun and the metal secure locked cabinet (B) any amination which should be locked in a separate safe Now the good point owning a firearm is if you phoned the Police that you suspected you property being burgled once the police bring your address up on computer and they see there are firearms in the property they would be around in a flash so thats the Good Point (happy Hunting )

 

[Countryboy]

when you apply for gun licence Police will chek with your GP

 

[Countryboy]

Not everyone knows the Procedure its not easy