1. JuJu

    JuJu Registered User

    Feb 13, 2008
    8
    north yorkshire
    Hi, I am new to this - was wondering if anyone has been through the new deputyship since October. My mum has vascular dementia and is in an EMI unit in a residential care home.

    Until February last year she lived at home with my Stepfather as her main carer. He had lots of medical needs himself, including dialysis three times a week, during which time I became her carer together with his daughter in law and one care agency. Mum was taken into hospital with pneumonia and whilst in there broke her ankle. The PCT took her to a residential home until her cast came off which was an hour away for me and I was visiting nearly every day. They then said she needed to be in an EMI unit and could not stay there as she gets aggressive. Unfortunately during this time her husband's health deteriorated and he died in November.

    I am now in the process of obtaining a deputyship which is proving to be a marathon task, I first met my solicitor in October and the application is only now getting finalised due to my stepfather's family, who had power of attorney for him, being reluctant to provide any of the financial information. This has now been passed onto the solicitor dealing with the estate who do not seem to be in any hurry to get things moving. Once my application is sent in how long will it take?

    I made the decision to move my mother to a home nearer to me as I am the only visitor and have had to ask Social Services to loan the care home fees until my application is approved, but as I keep receiving unpaid bills for care home fees (£680 per week!) in my name the stress is now beginning to take its toll and I need to get things in order.

    On top of this I will have to sell her home as she was the main beneficiary of the will, at the same time as having to deal with the harrowing visits to her at her new home where the only time she settles is when I am there, which in turn make me feel guilty when I leave her. She still cannot fully understand that she had lost her husband and asks for him continually.

    I could go on forever about how everywhere you turn no one seems to be able to answer your questions - am I the only one who has been put in this situation! I don't think so. Social Services have been less than helpful and have on occasions put more stress my way, my mother's bank have refused all access to her accounts because she has dementia and have been even more unhelpful. For nearly a year now I have had to fund all her expenditure myself and feel as though this is never going to come to an end.

    Sorry to ratter on but any helpful suggestions?
     
  2. 117katie

    117katie Guest

    Hi there,

    Believe me, you are not alone - I've filled in all the 62 pages (or more, can't remember now) to be appointed Deputy. Took me about 2 or 3 days' work - but I didn't have the complications you may have of family with power of attorney already in existence.

    When I first obtained all the forms from the Court, they said it could take 5 months. That was back in October. But when I phoned them again, at the beginning of December, they said they had a turn-round of about 6 weeks. In other words, they had over-estimated the time it might take them to deal with this new piece of legislation.

    The forms are fairly straight-forward, and repetitive, so pages 1-3 on the first set of forms resemble pages 1-3 on the next set, and on the next set. So it should not be too difficult for a highly paid solicitor to handle!!!

    Social Services are on this earth to be less than helpful - well, that's the way it seems to me, in my own experience. So again, you are not alone there.

    I recommend you phone the Court and ask their "current turn round time" for an application. You never know, it may even have reduced to 4 weeks by now! Also, they can make an "interim order" if you/or your solicitor should request that there is an important decision that needs to be made before such and such is sorted out. And I would think that the estate of your Mum's late husband may take some time to sort. Presumably a copy of the will could also be sent along with the application for Deputyship.

    Also, as I understand it, the Court has the power to ask somebody else involved to supply the required information, which could be your stepfather's family being asked to come up with some information. Don't know for sure about that one, but sounds reasonable to me.

    Wish you lots of luck.

    KATIE
     
  3. JuJu

    JuJu Registered User

    Feb 13, 2008
    8
    north yorkshire
    Thanks for your reply I am glad I am not alone on this. My solicitor tried to get an interim order when I had to move my mum, as the new home wanted 1 month' fees in advance and I had no way of obtaining this. The Court of Protection said they would not consider this until the initial application had been sent - so we got nowhere there. Thankfully my solicitor persuaded Social Services to loan me the fees, although because she will be self-funded, they do not usually get involved. They do however say they will review it in 7 weeks time by which time I don't think I will be any nearer a solution. The most frustrating point though is that I am told I cannot pay my solicitors fees from my mothers money. This leaves me with a bill nearing £1000 due to all the running around for information. Surely this cannot be fair! I would not be doing this if there was any other way my mother could be represented, what would happen to her if I did not. I dread to think.
     
  4. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,439
    Who told you you couldn't pay your solicitors fees from your mother's money? Because (and I realise this isn't exactly the same situation) registration fees have always been payable from the donor's assets (that's why they have the ability to reduce those fees if there aren't many assets).
     
  5. sue38

    sue38 Registered User

    Mar 6, 2007
    10,856
    Wigan, Lancs
    Jennifer I agree that cannot be right but I will check it out.

    I had a letter from the OPG this morning which said that the process (for deputyship) takes 12 to 16 weeks, but they would have a record of receiving the application after 4 weeks.

    This came from me querying why I hadn't heard anything further about an application (not for deputyship) that I submitted in Septmber. They told me that they had no record of receiving the application, which was strange as they acknowledged it in October, confirmed it was being passed to the appropriate department and even refunded the fees!

    Who knows what they have done with my application. I requested an urgent call from the person whose desk the papers are currently sitting on. That was at 11 a.m. and I'm still waiting...
     
  6. JuJu

    JuJu Registered User

    Feb 13, 2008
    8
    north yorkshire
    I have been told by my solicitor that I can pay the court fees - but any fees payable to them for their services in completing the forms (£1000!) I have to pay myself, because if and when any inheritance comes my way (which at £680 per week will probably be 0) I would reimburse myself from that fund. It's sad to think that all those years my mum and stepdad saved and were careful spending, will all be spent in care fees with nothing being left to those they wanted to provide for.
     
  7. sue38

    sue38 Registered User

    Mar 6, 2007
    10,856
    Wigan, Lancs
    This is an extract from the leaflet COP42 on the public guardian web site:-

    If you have used a solicitor to help with your application then you will be liable for the costs unless the Court directs that someone else will pay them. :(

    It appears however that once you have been appointed a deputy you are entitled to employ solicitors and the like and those fees will be payable out of the funds of the person who lacks capacity. Extract from COP 43

    Can I employ professionals to help me?
    You are permitted to employ professionals such as solicitors, accountants and regulated financial advisers to assist you in carrying out your role as Deputy. Fees are payable from the funds of the person who lacks capacity. You are not permitted however to delegate your responsibilities to another person. For example you can obtain advice about selling a property or completing an annual account or tax return; however it would not be appropriate to employ a solicitor simply to carry out your responsibility to pay fees to a nursing home.
    :confused:

    The link to the leaflet is
    http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/docs/COP42_web_1007.pdf
     
  8. 117katie

    117katie Guest

    Dear Sue

    That is exactly the way it was explained to me on the phone, when I made my first enquiries.

    The initial application is - AT THE START - self-funded, presumably because there could be multiple applications from a whole host of different people, all applying to be appointed Deputy. Only one of those applications may be granted. Or not even one of those applications.

    I found that the important thing to remember is that the Court may direct that "someone else" pays those costs/fees. I was given to understand that that "someone else" could be the person who will benefit from a Deputy being appointed.

    Most of the forms are not enormously difficult - they are repetitive and tedious, and total some 62 pages, or more. But as I said they are repetitive, and I would guess that they will be revised at some point in the future. Or perhaps that may be wishful thinking on my part.

    The information you enter in paragraph 7 (or similar) on one form has to be replicated EXACTLY on another form, perhaps. Those paragraphs differ on different forms, but it is by no means rocket science. Ok, I acknowledge that it is fairly straightforward but laborious and tedious for a totally literate person, and fairly impossible for a far less literate person. But I don't feel that people should be frightened of the process.

    It needs simplifying - of that there is no doubt. Having had "dealings" with the Mental Health Care of Older People Team dealing with my case, they too have pleaded their "newness" to it all, especially the Mental Capacity Act as of 1.10.2007.

    So, my best wishes again with this one!

    KATIE
     
  9. jimsandy

    jimsandy Registered User

    Jan 31, 2008
    16
    Soldiers Grove
    I do not know if this will help or not. But we got a power of attorney, while my mom was initially put into the hospital. So we were able to take care of her bills and such with her checking account. That fee for the POA was a bit for us to handle but in the end we got the monies back. Sounds like you have had some issues with the Social Services in your area. But hope things are calming down for you now. Just keep writing here, as it helps to at least vent to someone, as you can not hold it in forever and also take some time for R and R for yourself as you will need it more down the road. jimsandy
     
  10. JuJu

    JuJu Registered User

    Feb 13, 2008
    8
    north yorkshire
    Had the circumstances been a bit simpler with my mum's case I would definitely have done the forms myself. The complication I had was that my Stepfathers family who had Power of Attorney for him were seeking advice to see if they could also control my mother's finances. They feared that once their gravely ill father had died that they would lose control of everything which they thought was theirs. As my mum had inherited twice in their 40 year marriage and had put this into a joint name account, it most definitely was not the case.

    The only way to get any financial information from them was for a solicitor to request it. They even contacted my mother's bank to tell them she has dementia and so they automatically stopped all ways and means I could to access her money for her. They cancelled her cards and barred me from the internet access I had to monitor her standing orders etc. Hence why I have had to finance everything for her since, hairdressers, chiropody, new glasses etc. not forgetting the Mr Kiplings cakes which are very important to her well being! and don't I know it when I forget to bring them!!!

    I just hope that once the deputyship finally arrives I can put all this to bed once and for all. Although the prospect of being in sole charge of someone else's finances is quite daunting, and also the care issue, you are never sure if you have made the right choice. Is she getting the care she deserves when I am not there, if only she could say. That is what worries me the most.

    Thanks for listening, it does help to clear the brain.
     
  11. 117katie

    117katie Guest

    Hi there, again!

    You are having to make decisions similar to the ones I had to contemplate, when considering applying for Deputyship. I decided in the end, that I would rather it be me appointed, than an anonymous Court-Appointed-Deputy, as could have been the case, I was told.

    Now I understand totally why you had to employ a solicitor. If they contacted your mother's bank after her husband had died, then I guess your solicitor may be able to include such mention in the documentation, which may give more weight to their exclusion and your inclusion. I would consider they were perhaps somewhat out of order in doing that anyway, but as I don't know much about their circumstances, I may be wrong there. But then again, if the bank contacted you and asked a direct question about your mother's health, then I guess you had to answer it truthfully anyway.

    The circumstances and amounts of money that your mother inherited are presumably verifiable, so I imagine it can be established the extent of her own input into the joint account.

    I hope you are keeping records of all the monies you have been forced to spend yourself as a direct result of their intervention into your mother's affairs. Cakes included!

    Truly, I do understand your feelings about the prospect of being in sole charge of finances and welfare. But you will be able to access help and advice. I thought long and hard about it, but then I decided that there was no alternative, so just get on with it! And I don't think you can ever be absolutely sure about any choice you have to make. What is right for you at the time is the right decision for you. That is all you can ask of yourself, and all your Mum would want you to ask of yourself.

    The question of whether she getting the care she deserves when you are not there is one each of us has to face anyway. Deputyship of no!

    But you sound to me as if you have what it takes to do it, so again I wish you all the best.

    Katie
     
  12. JuJu

    JuJu Registered User

    Feb 13, 2008
    8
    north yorkshire
    Deputyship papers are being sent to Court of Protection today at last! Lets see how long it really does take!!!


    Julie
     
  13. JuJu

    JuJu Registered User

    Feb 13, 2008
    8
    north yorkshire
    Deputyship Received

    Just received notification that my application has been successful. It was submitted in February so it did take as long as predicted. Hopefully things can now start to be resolved.
     
  14. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,439
    Thanks for updating us Julie. That's 5 whole months and a bit according to my reckoning. :eek: I assume that all you've had is the notification, but not the papers to start dealing with issues, or did you get the whole thing?
     
  15. Luca

    Luca Registered User

    Jul 9, 2008
    49
    Sutton Coldfield.
    Can someone explain to mw what is 'Deputyship' is. Thank you
     
  16. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,439
    Luca - if someone has failed to make an EPA (old) or an LPA (new) before they lose mental capacity it "might" be necessary to apply to the court for deputyship so that finances and other things can be sorted out for the person. On the whole, it would seems that this can be an unnecessary step if there isn't much in the way of assets to deal with. However, if there was a house in a sole name that needed to be sold, then a deputyship is about the only way to handle it if neither power of attorney has been enacted.
     
  17. wendylew1

    wendylew1 Registered User

    Oct 20, 2009
    13
    Leicestershire
    #17 wendylew1, Oct 20, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2009
    All this is new to me

    All this is new to me.
    My dad (mum's full time carer) died last week I saw the solicitor today and I was told that I needed to apply for a Deputyship as mum has dementia.
    All funds in both dad's and mum's accounts have been frozen, even the £3,000 that dad wanted to leave to me, as he had only got about £1,500 in his own account, the rest is in joint accounts with mum. I was horrified to be told that it could take up to 6 months to sort, even then any other relative can object (she only has a cousin she hasn't seen for 3 years.) what do we do, starve ?
    Great, I only get Incapacity benefit and DLA (I have Meniere's disease with very bad vertigo)so that's not going to go far is it. I struggle as it is, but mum is so unhappy in the care home where she is temporarily while we had the funeral etc that I want her home with home cooked food which she loves and the tv, friends popping in etc. she loves talking about the past, she gets some of it right!
    I realise that something should have been sorted out earlier but It's been a struggle so far just keeping an eye on the incompetent care agency who come in twice a day to change mum's pads- not a lot to ask, I can't do it alone, I might hurt her, or wobble and drop her.
    I'm suicidal, It's bad enough losing a great dad who has been a friend for 48 years without going through this too. All I want to do is pay essential bills so she is comfortable, I don't want the money for myself. then I can relax knowing I'm doing my best. Advice from anyone would be appreciated
     
  18. sue38

    sue38 Registered User

    Mar 6, 2007
    10,856
    Wigan, Lancs
    Hi Wendy,

    I'm sorry you're having to go through this so soon after losing your dad. It is a long process to apply for deputyship, but hopefully your solicitor will have everything under control.

    Are you getting all the benefits you and your mum are entitled to? It might be worth a call to the benefits agency to see if you are entitled to anything more, perhaps on an emergency basis. It might be also be worth contacting Age Concern to see if they can offer any advice.

    Welcome to Talking Point, by the way. :)
     
  19. MJW

    MJW Registered User

    Sep 24, 2009
    154
    East Sussex
    Having just started out on this process myself, I feel it is prudent (to say the least) not to sign any kind of agreement or accept any liability to pay care home fees until the Deputyship is sorted out. If the person you are caring for is in hospital and they cannot be discharged home, then - so far as I can see - they will continue to be cared for in hospital until such time as the Deputyship is resolved. Whilst I don't approve of "bed blocking", it will certainly concentrate the minds of Social Services on doing all they can to help.

    As an aside, it seems to me that if you ask the solicitor of the person you are caring for to deal with the legal aspects, then their fees will be billed to the cared-for person's assets and not to their carer: ie, the solicitor is acting for and on behalf of the "patient" in setting up the Deputyship, and not on behalf of the putative Deputy. However, I'm not a lawyer so don't rely on this - it's just an idea.
     
  20. wendylew1

    wendylew1 Registered User

    Oct 20, 2009
    13
    Leicestershire
    Thanks "Sue38" and "MJW"

    Thanks both for your help and advice, I've spoken to a friend who is a judge and he says that it will be highly unlikely that as I've lived with mum and dad for 48 years (from birth) any judge would tell me to leave the house but this doesn't help with day to day bills -electric, gas, council tax (not exempt, house has not been modified and assets are more than
    £16,000, even though no one can access them!)
    I will try Age Concern, Benefits, and CAB, but the solicitor seemed so sure all I could do was wait.
    It certainly has helped sharing this with you.
    Wen
     

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