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Deferred Loans - Problem

Discussion in 'Legal and financial issues' started by Norfolklass, Aug 18, 2015.

  1. Norfolklass

    Norfolklass Registered User

    Feb 14, 2007
    #1 Norfolklass, Aug 18, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2015
    Not sure if anyone else may have had a similar experience on this matter, but just in case.

    Has anyone else had problems about getting a deferred loan to pay care home fees with their local authority?

    Whereby the local authority failed to tell you that your loved one was eligble for a deffered loan?
  2. 2jays

    2jays Registered User

    Jun 4, 2010
    West Midlands
    Oh my....... Goodness.....

    I think you need to see a solicitor....

    Maybe a CAB solicitor could help, but this is sounding very complicated. What I'm getting from your explanation...... LA have messed up big time and are now expecting you to sort it

    Don't sag under the pressure care home are putting on you. Easy typed I know......

    There must be a legal process you need to go through, and that can take time, so who ever thinks they are owed money, in my opinion, must wait until the mess is sorted. It isn't your mistake, it's the LA mistake. Mistake being the polite term I'm using.....

    Hopefully someone who knows, will be along with their knowledge xxx

    Sent from my iPhone using Talking Point
  3. AlsoConfused

    AlsoConfused Registered User

    Sep 17, 2010
    No idea how to help but in your shoes I'd contact Age UK again, tell them the whole sorry story (have to hand attachments of any documents you think relevant) and ask for advice.

    My uninformed gut feel (based on what you've said) is that you may have a case for maladministration against the council. I think you need to explore with an informed, independent organisation (like Age UK or the CAB) who should have done what, who's liable for what monies and so on.

    Given your state of health, it seems entirely wrong to me that you should be trying to sort out this problem. It seems more sensible to pass on the problem to an organisation you trust, to deal with it on your behalf.

    I understand you're getting hassled unendurably (by the care home) but they'd have enormous difficulties (bad press, damage to their relations with the council etc) if they carried through any of the threats they're apparently making. I think they might be bluffing.

    I also think the council staff may be more worried about their defective admin than they're letting on. If so, you've got some leverage over them.

    Good luck, I hope you're able to find the right allies to "fight your corner" without you having to do it.
  4. Soobee

    Soobee Registered User

    Aug 22, 2009
    I also think you need a solicitor to help.

    I think you have a case for not owing anything to anyone seeing as you've not signed anything.

    Please instruct a solicitor - it will potentially save you thousands of pounds and therefore will be worth every penny.
  5. Beate

    Beate Registered User

    May 21, 2014
    Someone must have paid the care home. They don't let £32,000 accumulate without moaning. If it wasn't you, it must have been social services so the money would be owed to them, wouldn't it? Or are they saying as no signed deferred payment agreement can be found, they are suddenly classing your dad as self-funding, and the private rate is four times as high? Even though, where is their contribution? Why are they saying you owe nothing to them?

    I agree, get legal advice. If your dad was not self-funding, which should be provable, then it stands to reason that you only owe the council their rate for the home.
  6. Pete R

    Pete R Registered User

    Jul 26, 2014
    My highlight but from what you have written I can see no evidence of a deferred loan in place..:confused:

    Great summary and I agree with others that proper legal advice is needed especially since your Mum is in the same home which does make it a tad more complicated. Someone in the LA messed up big time and the dispute should be with your Dad's estate and them. It should not involve the CH and only involve you as executor.

    Just a couple of question though.:)

    Whilst your Dad was in LA funded care did the LA take his state pension and 50% of his private or did they pay the full amount.?

    When your Dad became self funding (when your Mum needed to go into care) did the "imaginary" deferred loan pay all the fee or just the bit minus his pensions?

    Do you know how the CH came to the figure of £32,000 and how did you come to your figure of £8,000?
  7. Spiro

    Spiro Registered User

    Mar 11, 2012
  8. Norfolklass

    Norfolklass Registered User

    Feb 14, 2007

    Ok seriosuly dont think I've fully grasped this respond format. Sincere apologies, if i've not got it right. Had orignally thought no one interested in my post ( so stupidly adjusted it accordingly) but thank you for your response.

    OK CAB solicitor, could you expand please what do CAB means?

    LA have messed up big time, but i feel so stupid that i didnt question what they said given my past experience with them and most unlike me though have bit a bit unwell recently but even so! When it comes to my parents I normally carefully dot every i and cross every t!

    Think LA know they've ****** up ( even have voice recording of a staff member admitting as much, but only recorded phone call as i do miss things that people say and need a bit of time to assimilate, but now wont use recording as dont want to land LA staff member with her honesty).

    I just dont understand why everything shouldnt be black and white and none of this if we can pull the wool over someones eyes.

    I am not stupid i am detailed and concise and yet appear to have been taken advantage of by LA and the company who run the care home!

    So kicking myself and OH so wishing to kick their behinds as well!

    But thank you, if you could expand on CAB solicitor please.

    Nikki xxx

  9. Beate

    Beate Registered User

    May 21, 2014
    CAB = Citizen's Advice Bureau.
  10. Norfolklass

    Norfolklass Registered User

    Feb 14, 2007
    OK hells bells hopefully you got previous post.

    Sorry of coure realise you meant Citizens Advice Bureau, no idea the frustration with my brain, though almost back up to full brain power think a couple of more months will do it, but still slightly off kileter. Really annoyed cant say which care home, or the company who owns it, but they have now become very threatening over demands for £32k. Decided wont back down, just wish they didnt have mumm so could say mum has to leave home now.

  11. Norfolklass

    Norfolklass Registered User

    Feb 14, 2007
    Spot on

    Still not sure i'm doing response correct.

    Hi 2jays?

    Spot on, its HCC we owe monies to, but the debt was only up to £8k with the Local Authority, and care home (QC) £739.48 and not £32k. Total £8,739.48.

    But HCC (who are totally and utterly useless council and
    who have let me down at every single point with my parents care) say dad didnt sign the deferred care loan agreement, but the HCC 'b's' didnt send defered loan agreement forms out.

    So HCC have passed incorrect debt over to care home to chase (as care home have much more clout and a huge organisation, though whose care isnt great). So instead of owing local autority £8,739.48, wretched care home compay who i am not allowed to sight QC have come after me for £32k.

    The fact that they have passed on the debt to Q.C (how frustrating is this that i cant even name the care home provider, whose care really isnt that brilliant) so they can deal with me, (given they are a huge organisation with all their monies) for the £32k, instead of HCC, in case deleted Local Authority.

    I have tried to speak to Q.Care, but all they've done is send back a really badly worded emails (wonder if they actually went to school) saying pay or else. If they didnt have mum would go hell for leather or bish them on their noses, but they do have mum and despite the fact that their care leads a lot to be desired, at least mum is safe.

    Still not prepared to back down, but oh so tiring!

  12. Pickles53

    Pickles53 Registered User

    Feb 25, 2014
    Radcliffe on Trent
    I would second the advice to instruct a solicitor. Then you can ask for all correspondence and any other communications to be sent to them. It seems to be common practice with alleged debts that companies try to put pressure on quite unreasonably before it's even been established that payment is due.
  13. Norfolklass

    Norfolklass Registered User

    Feb 14, 2007
    Response to you all

    First of all thank you all so much for you kind advice. Just to respond to each of the points you all kindly raised in one long post (hopefully doing it this way works)

    I did contact Age UK, wonderful organisation, who also helped me back in 2009 when dad was put in care by PCT because of his Alzheimer’s. Back in 2009 AGE UK pointed out all the inaccuracies the LA had told me about dads funding. So even in
    2009 the LA ****** the things up.

    So I contacted AGE UK again this time and they told me I have a strong case against the LA.

    So I tried reasoning with LA by phone, got nowhere. So wrote to them detailing
    everything, but LA wrote back saying they are sorry about their mis-communication but they have passed everything over to the Care Home Company who run mum and dads care home and I now owe LA nothing.
    But that the Care Home Company will charge me as though dad had no deferred loan and would therefore expect us to pay the Self Funder Private rates (even though dad had insufficient monies to have paid these and zero savings) from when mum went into care until bungalow sold.

    After mum went into care the LA continued to pay Care Home fees less dads contribution (pension and 50% occupational pension), which I paid directly to Care Home as I've always done. LA told me verbally at the time that I would owe LA ONLY for their contribution (at LA standard deferred loan rate) until the bungalow sold.

    LA also said at the time that when mum went into care, as mum had such a small pension and I was worried about paying the bills for the bungalow maintenance until it sold I could continue to
    keep dads 50% occupational pension to pay the bills until the bungalow sold.

    However, they later rescinded all these 'verbal statement' when they discovered I hadn’t signed an agreement with them. But at no time did the LA representative tell me I had to sign anything, nor did they send me anything to sign.

    So instead of being charged the LA rate (minus the contribution dad had already paid) for the period mum went into care until the bungalow sold (ie when dad came into monies) I've been charged by the Care Home as though dad were private from when mum went into care until dad died, hence bill of £32k.

    My calculation of £8k is the difference between the amounts the LA paid to the care home based on their deferred loan rate minus what dad had already paid for that period. I've also taken off £4k as I wasn’t told dad could have his Attendance Allowance re-instated. As at the time I was told that if the LA pay any of your care home fees you can’t claim this. But upon reading the booklet the LA sent me after dad had died, it seems under a deferred loan scheme I could have reinstated dads Attendance Allowance.

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