Dealing with uncooperative companies

[Emerion]

Hello,
my aunt has early/medium stage vascular dementia. She needs help with her affairs but has not yet agreed to me having power of attorney because she doesn't think there's anything wrong with her. That's another issue, which will be dealt with eventually. I am having problems helping her with finances etc. For example, now that she's gone into a nursing home, I need to cancel things like a monthly wine order that keeps getting delivered to her home. I won't be selling the house until I get power of attorney. The wine firm won't cancel the order unless she speaks to them on the phone. Every time we try she becomes confused and distressed and hangs up. They have said they will speak to me about it only she gives them permission verbally because of the data protection act. But this hasn't worked despite trying several times because she won't speak to them. I have asked if she could send them a letter instead but they say no. I think this is being unfair as it discriminates against people who can't use the phone. What if she had lost her hearing for example? Neighbours are kindly taking in the wine at the moment, but they aren't a warehouse. And obviously there are other issues like this to deal with. Does anyone know if there is a way to make a company be reasonable and try to assist when a customer becomes unable to use their standard procedures?

 

[Shedrech]

hi Emerion
I don't understand why a letter isn't acceptable
personally I would write a letter and have your aunt sign it (I am assuming she can sign her name) - I might also send a covering letter saying that you as her family member are simply following her instructions and that as the letter attached was written in her presence and signed by her it is clear what her decision is and you therefore assume it is acceptable
maybe even have the manager of the care home sign the letter as a witness, if they are happy to do this
keep copies of both letters
I have found that telling companies is better than asking them
worth trying

has your aunt dealt with the move into the nursing home herself?
from your description it doesn't sound as though she is able to manage her affairs herself, and it may be worth considering applying to be her Deputy rather than being in limbo while she wants to deal with her affairs, won't appoint an Attorney but actually is not at all able to manage her finances - strictly, without POA in place you have no legal authority to deal with her finances, so you will keep coming across situations where companies will not deal with you

 

[Tin]

Go higher up in this company, if possible the owner. Do a search on the company. Write, email or talk to this person. Let them know your problem and even disgust at how this is being handled.

Not that I am suggested you do this, but a friend of mine having similar problems actually filmed her mother, stating that she wanted to cancel an ongoing order and then immediately went into true dementia state. She emailed this to the managing director and got results, plus loads of apologises.

 

[Kevinl]

As Tin says get the e-mail address of the managing director/ceo or whatever and e-mail giving them one week to refund the money and collect the wine or you'll start using social media to see how many other people are being treated this way. Threaten to take the story to the BBC who are doing a loot on the topic of financial abuse of the elderly (and this is what is happening) and o people like Martin Lewis who regularly features issues like this and won't hesitate to name and shame the firm.
Be polite but be firm too, offer them one chance to put it right before they find themselves in the media for all the wrong reasons.
It's quite possible the management aren't aware of the situation and even if they are they're not going to see the good name of their company dragged through the mud like this,
K

 

[Beate]

I'm going to tell you an anecdote from my work life now. Sometimes I had to use the company credit card (which I was authorised to do in my position) over the phone or call someone about something that had been ordered with it. Didn't happen often but sometimes was unavoidable. The credit card holder was the boss of bosses who did NOT want to be disturbed by trivial matters such as having to talk to someone over the phone just to give them permission to speak to me. So every time someone asked to speak to the card holder, I said "Certainly", muted the phone and picked a random male colleague: "G, can you please pretend to be P again for a minute?" Worked like a charm.

To clarify, I'm in no way advocating lies. Just erm, telling you a story.

 

[Tin]

As Tin says get the e-mail address of the managing director/ceo or whatever and e-mail giving them one week to refund the money and collect the wine or you'll start using social media to see how many other people are being treated this way. Threaten to take the story to the BBC who are doing a loot on the topic of financial abuse of the elderly (and this is what is happening) and o people like Martin Lewis who regularly features issues like this and won't hesitate to name and shame the firm.
Be polite but be firm too, offer them one chance to put it right before they find themselves in the media for all the wrong reasons.
It's quite possible the management aren't aware of the situation and even if they are they're not going to see the good name of their company dragged through the mud like this,
K

You are so right, I never really thought of it like that, but it is financial abuse of the elderly. Apart from the filmed bit, my friend also stated that if no action taken within 7 days she would be placing all on facebook and contacting other various medias.

 

[Emerion]

Wow! thanks for all those good ideas. I feel a bit more hopeful now.

I'm going to tell you an anecdote from my work life now. Sometimes I had to use the company credit card (which I was authorised to do in my position) over the phone or call someone about something that had been ordered with it. Didn't happen often but sometimes was unavoidable. The credit card holder was the boss of bosses who did NOT want to be disturbed by trivial matters such as having to talk to someone over the phone just to give them permission to speak to me. So every time someone asked to speak to the card holder, I said "Certainly", muted the phone and picked a random male colleague: "G, can you please pretend to be P again for a minute?" Worked like a charm.

To clarify, I'm in no way advocating lies. Just erm, telling you a story.

That might work, if I have the nerve! Thanks for that

 

[Rosettastone57]

Hello,
my aunt has early/medium stage vascular dementia. She needs help with her affairs but has not yet agreed to me having power of attorney because she doesn't think there's anything wrong with her. That's another issue, which will be dealt with eventually. I am having problems helping her with finances etc. For example, now that she's gone into a nursing home, I need to cancel things like a monthly wine order that keeps getting delivered to her home. I won't be selling the house until I get power of attorney. The wine firm won't cancel the order unless she speaks to them on the phone. Every time we try she becomes confused and distressed and hangs up. They have said they will speak to me about it only she gives them permission verbally because of the data protection act. But this hasn't worked despite trying several times because she won't speak to them. I have asked if she could send them a letter instead but they say no. I think this is being unfair as it discriminates against people who can't use the phone. What if she had lost her hearing for example? Neighbours are kindly taking in the wine at the moment, but they aren't a warehouse. And obviously there are other issues like this to deal with. Does anyone know if there is a way to make a company be reasonable and try to assist when a customer becomes unable to use their standard procedures?

If this is someone who had just told you on the phone they won't accept a letter then I would send one anyway with your aunt's signature. Just ask who to address it to. If they have a website then open an online account for her if it's possible and see if you can cancel it. My MIL had a problem with a mail order company so I just opened an online account in her name and sorted out payment issues that way. Although I have POA I didn't need to use it in this instance

 

[Emerion]

hi Emerion
I don't understand why a letter isn't acceptable
personally I would write a letter and have your aunt sign it (I am assuming she can sign her name) - I might also send a covering letter saying that you as her family member are simply following her instructions and that as the letter attached was written in her presence and signed by her it is clear what her decision is and you therefore assume it is acceptable
maybe even have the manager of the care home sign the letter as a witness, if they are happy to do this
keep copies of both letters
I have found that telling companies is better than asking them
worth trying

has your aunt dealt with the move into the nursing home herself?
from your description it doesn't sound as though she is able to manage her affairs herself, and it may be worth considering applying to be her Deputy rather than being in limbo while she wants to deal with her affairs, won't appoint an Attorney but actually is not at all able to manage her finances - strictly, without POA in place you have no legal authority to deal with her finances, so you will keep coming across situations where companies will not deal with you

She didn't deal with moving to a home herself. She had a fall and the hospital assessed her and determined that she was not fit to go home, even with care visits.

 

[Emerion]

If this is someone who had just told you on the phone they won't accept a letter then I would send one anyway with your aunt's signature. Just ask who to address it to. If they have a website then open an online account for her if it's possible and see if you can cancel it. My MIL had a problem with a mail order company so I just opened an online account in her name and sorted out payment issues that way. Although I have POA I didn't need to use it in this instance

That's interesting. I will try that one from a few of my aunts problems.

 

[Rosettastone57]

That's interesting. I will try that one from a few of my aunts problems.

I currently run my MIL milk delivery, clothes shopping , BT account , frozen meals delivery without POA.

 

[Shedrech]

I was asking more about your aunt's financial arrangements rather than the physical move into the nursing home - or has the LA taken on the management of her finances also
just, please, be careful - eg Rosettastone57 has POA - companies are required to only deal with the account holder or their legal representative - I appreciate that you want to help your aunt, but if you do so without authority you could end up getting into quite a pickle
if the Local Authority moved your aunt in her best interests as a safeguarding measure, that rather implies that they no longer consider she had capacity to decide where she lives - so maybe it is time to take on Deputyship

 

[love.dad.but..]

I'm going to tell you an anecdote from my work life now. Sometimes I had to use the company credit card (which I was authorised to do in my position) over the phone or call someone about something that had been ordered with it. Didn't happen often but sometimes was unavoidable. The credit card holder was the boss of bosses who did NOT want to be disturbed by trivial matters such as having to talk to someone over the phone just to give them permission to speak to me. So every time someone asked to speak to the card holder, I said "Certainly", muted the phone and picked a random male colleague: "G, can you please pretend to be P again for a minute?" Worked like a charm.

To clarify, I'm in no way advocating lies. Just erm, telling you a story.

 

[Rosettastone57]

That's interesting. I will try that one from a few of my aunts problems.

I currently run my MIL milk delivery, clothes shopping, online grocery frozen meals delivery without POA. I made enquiries with Thames water to run her account without POA and all they required was a signed letter from MIL. I do have POA but organisations vary as to their requirements. British gas wanted a copy . I'm surprised the wine firm came up with this. It's often lack of training amongst staff

 

[Shedrech]

I'm sorry - we can't surely want things both ways ie for a PWD to be safeguarded by the legal system and company procedures which are in place to counter possible financial abuse, and then, however well meaningly, use the very ways used by those who set out to defraud vulnerable folk- what is being suggested, however well meaning, is not a responsible way to proceed
surely it is important to gain POA or Deputyship or Appointeeship, or whatever is appropriate, and then sort out financial arrangements, however awkward that may be

 

[jugglingmum]

As far as the wine firm is concerned, can you just say you have POA over the phone, otherwise I suspect the person in the call centre hasn't got a clue and you can write a letter for your aunt to sign.

As Shedrech has said, if she won't give you POA then you need to get deputyship ASAP, things can deteriorate rapidly, it takes 3 months to register POA, so if she will give it to sell the house, get her to give it now, saying that as it takes so long to register, it needs doing.

If she can' give the correct answers in a phone call, she realistically doesn't have enough capacity to fully handle her financial affairs, which effectively you are doing for her, and it is clearly taking up more of your time to do it this way.

Stopping the DD/credit card payment authorisation may be equally as effective.

I have found a few organisations will deal with me over the phone when I've said I have POA so you could try this as well.

 

[Shedrech]

IF you have POA, then it's perfectly reasonable to say so over the phone - it isn't acceptable if you don't have POA
the original enquiry here is a seemingly trivial issue; just wanting to stop a standing arrangement for purchasing wine seems unproblematic - but there is an overriding concern that no-one without POA should be saying they have such authority

 

[love.dad.but..]

I'm sorry - we can't surely want things both ways ie for a PWD to be safeguarded by the legal system and company procedures which are in place to counter possible financial abuse, and then, however well meaningly, use the very ways used by those who set out to defraud vulnerable folk- what is being suggested, however well meaning, is not a responsible way to proceed
surely it is important to gain POA or Deputyship or Appointeeship, or whatever is appropriate, and then sort out financial arrangements, however awkward that may be

I agree with you...the matter I had to deal with was a magazine subscription my mother had...she died...I spoke to the company on the phone who proceeded to tell me they could only speak with the account holder who I had just said had died. They said they would deal with father instead but he was unable to tell them his name let alone explain he had found his wife dead...so in that instance I made a judgement call so I could deal with it for my dad.

 

[LadyA]

I dealt with something similar for an elderly friend years ago, but it was monthly delivery of books! I just told them that she was very elderly, did not understand why she was getting books every month from them, or how to stop it. I told them that the direct debit was now stopped, she would NOT be paying for any more books, and so they should not send any more. Any further books received by her would not be returned, unless collected at the company's expense. Sent the letter registered post, and kept a copy. They sent a few more books, didn't get paid, and then stopped sending them!

 

[canary]

Im a bit concerned about how her finances are being dealt with. You say that she is in a nursing home, but no-one has POA because she wont give it to anyone. How are her nursing home fees being paid. Is she still writing cheques or arranged for the fees to be paid by standing order/direct debit? Are you paying the fees, or is the Local Authority dealing with it? If its the LA dealing with it then I think it very likely that they have already got deputyship for themselves. Please check up on this as if they have already got deputyship then you wont be able to get POA and it also means that it should be up to the person appointed (probably a solicitor) to sort things like dealing with companies and also selling her house.