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Dad on section 3. 117 meeting next week

Tennisballs

New member
Aug 6, 2020
6
Hello,
My Mum is on section 3 and we have a 117 meeting next week.
I disagree with her husband on what nursing homes as he’s done no research, read no reports etc and in no way will they need herwellbeing needs.
I have found one that is double the local authority rate but meets all of her wellbeing needs re gardening, lawns, trees, flowers, vegetables and nature (a patio would be like giving a librarian an email weekly to read).
What an I up against as I believe no one will be on my side in the meeting re cost and up against husband.
What questions will I be asked? What should I prepare?
 

Tennisballs

New member
Aug 6, 2020
6
Hello,
My Mum is on section 3 and we have a 117 meeting next week.
I disagree with her husband on what nursing homes as he’s done no research, read no reports etc and in no way will they need herwellbeing needs.
I have found one that is double the local authority rate but meets all of her wellbeing needs re gardening, lawns, trees, flowers, vegetables and nature (a patio would be like giving a librarian an email weekly to read).
What an I up against as I believe no one will be on my side in the meeting re cost and up against husband.
What questions will I be asked? What should I prepare?
Also as they are married it’s likely if I disagree he will decline further involvement from me. I have LPA finance only.
 

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
13,678
South coast
Hello @Tennisballs and welcome to DTP.

Do you know if this home will accept your mum? Quite often, not many homes will accept people on a section3 as they have challenging behaviour that few homes can deal with. Having things like gardening, painting etc etc are nice things, but they are, IMO, secondary. What people with dementia need (and even more so if theyve been on a section 3) is good experienced carers.

With dementia, things dont always work out the way you expect them to. It is very easy to be beguiled into thinking about what they would have once wanted, but things change. When mum moved into her care home she was placed there as part of a reablement placement, so she was put in the smallest room overlooking the car park. Knowing how much she loved her garden and how she used to sit in her lounge with the patio doors open so that she could see her garden I pushed for to be moved to the back of the home so that she was looking out onto the garden. But no, she no longer cared about a garden! She wanted to stay in her small room overlooking the car park because she found it interesting watching everyone come and go. She pronounced the garden "boring" and didnt even want to sit in it. She spent most of her time sitting in the lounge.
 

Tennisballs

New member
Aug 6, 2020
6
Hello,
Thank you for your time. The home has said prior to an assessment that they would take her on a section 3.
Where she currently is, the nurses state she is brighter in mood outside on the small courtyard that they have.
Whilst I appreciate she will never be the gardener she once was, it’s her calmest place.
 

Louise7

Registered User
Mar 25, 2016
2,468
Hello from me too @Tennisballs you'll find that this is a helpful and supportive forum.

My understanding of section 117 is that the local authority/CCG are responsible for funding a placement. Has a care needs plan already been produced or will that be discussed at next week's meeting? This should include details of the care that your mum needs and where she should live.

The local authority/CCG should provide you at least one placement which will meet your mum's care needs and is within their budget. Although they can increase the budget if there are no other suitable placements available even if the home you have looked at can meet your mum's care needs as it costs double the local authority rate it's unlikely that they will fund this unless top up fees are paid to make up the difference. Perhaps the best thing to do at the moment is to wait until next week's meeting so that your mum's care needs are clear. They will consider what the hospital says about your mum's needs, and you and your mum's husband will be able to provide some input into this too. As it seems that neither of you hold Health & Welfare LPA decisions will be made on a 'best interests' basis - what is best for your mum - rather than taking 'sides'.

This link may be useful as it explains the 117 aftercare process, including what should be included within the care plan, and also top up fees:

https://www.rethink.org/advice-and-...ons/mental-health-laws/section-117-aftercare/
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
21,052
North Manchester
If a top up fee is required by the chosen home this can be first party.
s117 aftercare is one of two situations where this is allowed.

Beware that top up can increase either because of a general increase or because the home claims more care is needed.
 
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Tennisballs

New member
Aug 6, 2020
6
Hi,
Care needs will be discussed at this meeting.
can they use her state pension and private pension to top up? I hope so.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
21,052
North Manchester
'They' don't top up, somebody else can choose to top up to get a more expensive placement.

She will still be paid her state pension but will loose benefits such as attendance allowance, rules are essentially the same as a stay in hospital.
She can use both her state and private pensions.

The top up can be paid by the person (first party) or anybody else (third party), or any mix of the two.
 

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
13,678
South coast
Yes, the pensions can go towards the top-ups, but beware - they have to come from somewhere and they are likely to increase, possibly by quite a bit, every year. If half the pension goes to the husband, where will the rest of the top-up come from? No-one else will pay it - it has to come from that person or family.
 

Louise7

Registered User
Mar 25, 2016
2,468
The payment of top-ups has to be agreed by the local authority and they will check that firstly the family choice of home will meet her needs and then that there is sufficient funding available to pay the top-ups for the duration that your mum is expected to remain on section 117 aftercare. You will need to sign an agreement confirming that you will pay the top-ups. If the section 117 aftercare stops then the top-ups will need to continue unless the care home is happy to accept local authority rates, but couldn't continue to be paid out of your mum's money, a third party would have to pay. If you and your mum's husband disagree on the choice of home then that may be a problem, and the local authority may have to consider things such as will your mum's husband be able to easily/regularly visit his wife at your preferred choice of home when making a 'best interests' decision.

Don't make any decisions until you have been provided with confirmation of your mum's care needs and the type of accommodation she requires. Also, don't assume that care homes which accept the local authority rate won't have gardens with lawns, trees, flowers and nature. My mum was initially placed in a local authority home and it had a lovely big garden and she is now in a private home which is quite a bit more expensive but has a similar sized garden. Don't discount out of hand any of the suggested placements offered by the local authority, you and your mum's husband should at least go to look at them first. Also, as financial attorney for your mum, you have to act in her best interests financially so think carefully about paying expensive top-ups if there are other less expensive homes that will meet your mum's care needs. Good luck at the meeting next week.
 
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theunknown

Registered User
Apr 17, 2015
436
My mum was moved from a Section 2 to a Section 3 and she didn't have challenging behaviour. I never found the answer as to why she was subject to a section 3 order, although she'd started suffering badly with psychosis (very distressing), and she'd been placed on a psychiatric unit and then sectioned. The outcome was I was told she'd never be allowed to return to her home, and I then wanted to find a care home as quickly as possible to get her off that ward.

My mum would have the care home fee paid at the rate the local authority went up to, but I wanted to move her near to me (York), and it was a different council, so the top-up fee was going to be higher. In this event the Section 3 actually helped me. As Louise says, someone has to sign to say top-up fees will be paid but, if I remember rightly, unless a person is subject to a117 order you can't use their money to pay this extra amount, but if they're on a Section 3 you can. In other words, without this, I'd only be able to put her into a local authority home, as opposed to a private one, unless I had the money to pay a few hundred pounds a week extra, which I didn't. I found a home I liked and I had to go through the courts to become my mum's deputy, so I could access my mum's bank accounts, and was able to pay myself back what I'd had to pay out for a few months before that was granted.

Louise mentioned that, 'If the section 117 aftercare stops then the top-ups will need to continue unless the care home is happy to accept local authority rates, but couldn't continue to be paid out of your mum's money, a third party would have to pay. ' My mum was in her care home for five years and every so often I was asked to sign to agree to the extention of 'deprivation of liberty', as she was in a secure, locked unit of the home. So I assume the section 117 was kept in place once it was granted, and the top-up fees weren't a problem. My mum's pensions covered this and it was me and my sister due to inherit, so we weren't financially depriving any hopeful relatives.

As others have said, it's not really about the facilities; it's about the care and concern that your mum receives. My mum loved her various gardens and working on them. The home I chose was a converted farmhouse surrounded by rolling countryside. As far as I know she only once ventured outside the home to be in the gardens when we were there for a fete, and she had to be coaxed out by one of the lovely carers. It's such a horrible decision to have to make, and you just have to go with your gut. Does it seem like a place where people will care about her?
 

theunknown

Registered User
Apr 17, 2015
436
Just to add, I have absolutely nothing against local authority care homes, and if you can find a good one - great. But in my area we have hardly any left.