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Cost of care homes! Blimey!

Cazb85

Registered User
Jan 2, 2016
24
Thanks so much. Can't actually tell you how much help this forum has been. Finally feel I'm not alone in suffering this awful disease my dad has got.

What annoys me and which is becoming more apparent. Dementia isn't seen as a medical problem like a disease should be and instead as a social problem hence NHS not helping. Sorry if this is really obvious but it is so annoying!!!!!!! The day the NHS see dementia as a medical condition maybe it will be made easier for families across the country!
 
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lin1

Registered User
Jan 14, 2010
9,319
East Kent
Thanks so much. Can't actually tell you how much help this forum has been. Finally feel I'm not alone in suffering this awful disease my dad has got.

What annoys me and which is becoming more apparent. Dementia isn't seen as a medical problem like a disease should be and instead as a social problem hence NHS not helping. Sorry if this is really obvious but it is so annoying!!!!!!! The day the NHS see dementia as a medical condition maybe it will be made easier for families across the country!
Hi, the holding is mine.
Your right their, it's seen as a social illness. Which is oh so wrong.
 

fizzie

Registered User
Jul 20, 2011
2,730
Don't hold your breath. I don't know how they get away with it but they do - of course it is an medical condition but beware because if what they are saying is that it is a disease but the symptoms of this disease are social then every single person in the country with a major diagnosis is under threat, MS, Motor Neurone Disease, Parkinsons - all diseases / illnesses like dementia but they begin with the easy target, the elderly! and tell them that they do not have a disease which warrants funding and when they are still running out of money then they will move down the list. How typical is that of the thought processes in the UK? I have yet to work out how legal challenges have not succeeded and why there are not more legal challenges when it is clear discrimination
 

theunknown

Registered User
Apr 17, 2015
431
Don't hold your breath. I don't know how they get away with it but they do - of course it is an medical condition but beware because if what they are saying is that it is a disease but the symptoms of this disease are social then every single person in the country with a major diagnosis is under threat, MS, Motor Neurone Disease, Parkinsons - all diseases / illnesses like dementia but they begin with the easy target, the elderly! and tell them that they do not have a disease which warrants funding and when they are still running out of money then they will move down the list. How typical is that of the thought processes in the UK? I have yet to work out how legal challenges have not succeeded and why there are not more legal challenges when it is clear discrimination
What you are saying is terrifying Fizzie, but also makes perfect sense. I've been focussing on people with mental health problems and how these conditions are treated as separate from physical health. But it's obvious how segregating people from NHS care because it involves mental health (hever mind that all mental health problems also affect physical health) will lead to a trickle-down effect where less and less individuals will be able to access 'free' health care (actually paid for by our taxes) from the NHS.
 

Cazb85

Registered User
Jan 2, 2016
24
Me again! Sorry everyone!

Been looking at my financial options. Luckily I remembered my best friends husband is a financial advisor! So I went round tonight and they fed me! (Bonus) and I got some advice.

He has suggested as one of my options annuity. Sounds fair but I will have to sell my dads house. Emotional ties aside this might be good. I googled the 7 stages of Alzheimer's tonight to see life expectancy etc and dad is displaying (might be) stage 6, but then he like this morning seems like my old dad! Arghhhhh! I don't know.

Deferred payment option. Now there is something that my friends husband doesn't like about these but he couldn't remember without reading up on them again. He is going to email me tomorrow.

Has anyone done either of these options and can anyone explain (as easily as possible) what the downside of deferred payment option is!

Sorry for keep leaving messages. Keep thinking knowledge is power but at the moment all I have is a headache!
 

fizzie

Registered User
Jul 20, 2011
2,730
try searching annuity too, I have heard a lot of people here and elsewhere say that this is not a good option - it is as usual a case of the insurance companies win win.

Financial advisors make very good money from annuities

I would take proper impartial advice if you are even considering that route especially as your dad is not in the early stages

But there will be many different opinions on this and everyone has different circumstances.

The only experience I have is when my husband was diagnosed with terminal cancer he took some kind of annuity (against my advice) and we lost thousands and I mean mega bucks thousands as he died 3 months later
 
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tigerlady

Registered User
Nov 29, 2015
427
Here is a fact sheet from Age UK which has some info on deferred payments

http://www.ageuk.org.uk/Documents/E...rmanent_care_home_provision_fcs.pdf?dtrk=true


As regards annuities, my mother went into a care home in 2007 and we sold her house immediately, and as interest rates were good then and care home fees a lot lower, her pension, attendance allowance and interest were enough to pay the fees. We put her money into a 2 year bond but after that the interest rate on the next bond was far lower and my sister did some calculations on how much of the capital would be eroded if she lived for many years. We then decided to take out a deferred annuity, which would kick in after 3 years and pay all her care home fees for the rest of her life, but it did mean that if she died within 3 years the money would be lost. Unfortunately she only lasted a year after that, but at the time myself, my brother and sister decided that it was worth it to protect the remaining capital, and save us from the worry that if her money might run out if she lived for long time

I think insurance companies base a lot of these products on the fact that the average time someone lasts in a care home is 3 years. Obviously some live a lot longer but many also die in about a year. If we had taken one out to start immediately, it would have been ridiculously expensive, and in view of the fact that she only lived for 1 more year, we would have lost far more.

Get all the financial advise you can. There are specific firms that specialise in this type of annuity but your friend will probably have the details of these.

Also did you consider renting your dads house out or would it not bring in enough combined with the attendance allowance and his pension?

Wishing you all the best xx
 

Chemmy

Registered User
Nov 7, 2011
7,591
Yorkshire
Me again! Sorry everyone!

Been looking at my financial options. Luckily I remembered my best friends husband is a financial advisor! So I went round tonight and they fed me! (Bonus) and I got some advice.

He has suggested as one of my options annuity. Sounds fair but I will have to sell my dads house. Emotional ties aside this might be good. I googled the 7 stages of Alzheimer's tonight to see life expectancy etc and dad is displaying (might be) stage 6, but then he like this morning seems like my old dad! Arghhhhh! I don't know.

Deferred payment option. Now there is something that my friends husband doesn't like about these but he couldn't remember without reading up on them again. He is going to email me tomorrow.

Has anyone done either of these options and can anyone explain (as easily as possible) what the downside of deferred payment option is!

Sorry for keep leaving messages. Keep thinking knowledge is power but at the moment all I have is a headache!
I don't know which version of the seven stages you looked at but this is the one I used to refer to
https://www.alzinfo.org/understand-alzheimers/clinical-stages-of-alzheimers/

and it does give average times each substage can be expected to last. My mum moved into her care home at, I'd say, at about stage 6a/b and made it all the way through to stage 7d/e. That took eight years.

So the annuity option would have worked out well for her. But the average care home residency is, I believe, around two and a half years. As with life in general, lots of residents who were much physically fitter and not as far down the dementia journey as Mum passed away long before her. I guess it's just the luck of the draw
 

Witzend

Registered User
Aug 29, 2007
4,291
SW London
Annuities are always a gamble. My mother was 89 when she went into her CH, and in good health apart from dementia, which was by then in probably late moderate stage. She came from a large and long lived family, but even so none of them had made it past 89 or 90. But we took out an annuity anyway, and thank heavens we did, since she lived to 97 and was in her CH very nearly 8 years. During that time I saw so many other residents come, decline, and go.
 

Pete R

Registered User
Jul 26, 2014
2,038
Staffs
Deferred payment option. Now there is something that my friends husband doesn't like about these but he couldn't remember without reading up on them again. He is going to email me tomorrow.

Has anyone done either of these options and can anyone explain (as easily as possible) what the downside of deferred payment option is!
I am going through the Deferred Payment Agreement process with my Mom's house and had all the legal stuff to sign over Christmas. I would be interested to know why your friend thinks they are not a good idea.

The process is quite straight forward. The LA value the property, take off 10% plus £14250 and then will pay the care home fees up to that amount. It can be complete weekly amount (minus pensions/benefits) or less if you wish to add to it via rent or any other means. They will even allow a higher rate of Personal Allowance for household expenses.

LA's can charge interest and costs to cover their expenses. Mine do not which helps with the decision making.

They put a legal charge on the house and on death will want the money back. This can come from the sale of the property or from any other means so if you do decide to keep it you can pay it off any way you wish.

However you have to bear in mind your original post and the cost of Care Homes. How far will the money go and what happens if it runs out? This may impact on your choice of home.

Good Luck.:)
 

Cazb85

Registered User
Jan 2, 2016
24
Thanks Pete. What is the £14,250 they take off for? My dads LA have said they don't charge interest which is good. Does that house prices rising would hopefully help as interest isn't being charged? It's all so much to get my head round.

I will ask my friend if he has remembered the downfall. It might have been the interest bit that can be charged by some LAs.

I think if I use dads pension, attendance allowance and rent the house I might be just borrowing 2k per month which slightly less horrific!!!!

I will look into annuity too, I want to speak to dads gp and see what he says too. He might know about the annuity side and he knows dad medical background. I am thinking maybe if you have any underlying health issues then maybe this option is an even bigger gamble!! As no one has a crystal ball it is all a gamble!
 

tigerlady

Registered User
Nov 29, 2015
427
Thanks Pete. What is the £14,250 they take off for? My dads LA have said they don't charge interest which is good. Does that house prices rising would hopefully help as interest isn't being charged? It's all so much to get my head round.

I will ask my friend if he has remembered the downfall. It might have been the interest bit that can be charged by some LAs.

I think if I use dads pension, attendance allowance and rent the house I might be just borrowing 2k per month which slightly less horrific!!!!

I will look into annuity too, I want to speak to dads gp and see what he says too. He might know about the annuity side and he knows dad medical background. I am thinking maybe if you have any underlying health issues then maybe this option is an even bigger gamble!! As no one has a crystal ball it is all a gamble!
If you read the AGE UK fact sheet that I gave you a link to in my second post you will see this paragraph

Note: Where a property is used as security for a deferred payment
agreement, the equity limit must be set at the value of the property minus ten
percent, minus £14,250 (for financial year 2015/16, in line with the lower
capital limit) and the amount of any encumbrances (legal claims by another
party) already secured on it, for example a mortgage.


The £14,250 is the lower limit of capital below which the local authority has to meet all of the care costs, so they are not allowed to take that. However, if your father was in a home costing around £1000 per week it is unlikely that they would pay that, but they have a duty to find a care home within their budget,and if they cant then they would have to pay that. Trouble is that it might mean that your father has to change homes at that point. Crystal balls are definitely needed!!!
 

Pickles53

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
2,474
Radcliffe on Trent
If you read the AGE UK fact sheet that I gave you a link to in my second post you will see this paragraph

Note: Where a property is used as security for a deferred payment
agreement, the equity limit must be set at the value of the property minus ten
percent, minus £14,250 (for financial year 2015/16, in line with the lower
capital limit) and the amount of any encumbrances (legal claims by another
party) already secured on it, for example a mortgage.


The £14,250 is the lower limit of capital below which the local authority has to meet all of the care costs, so they are not allowed to take that. However, if your father was in a home costing around £1000 per week it is unlikely that they would pay that, but they have a duty to find a care home within their budget,and if they cant then they would have to pay that. Trouble is that it might mean that your father has to change homes at that point. Crystal balls are definitely needed!!!
My mum's home had an agreement that if a resident had self-funded for 3 years minimum, they guaranteed to accept the LA rate once their capital had reached the point where LA funding kicked in. So we knew she would never have needed to move for financial reasons. Weekly rate was £675 which was a little bit above the local average for a specialist dementia residential home, but not by much.

Might be worth asking about policy on this as part of your research.
 

Pete R

Registered User
Jul 26, 2014
2,038
Staffs
My dads LA have said they don't charge interest which is good. Does that house prices rising would hopefully help as interest isn't being charged?
The way I see it is as an interest free loan which you will always be able to pay back whether by selling the house or by any other means.

It also gives you time to decide if you are making the correct decision. If after a year or
so you think selling the house would be a better option then you are able to do that and pay back the LA.

:)
 

Pete R

Registered User
Jul 26, 2014
2,038
Staffs
However, if your father was in a home costing around £1000 per week it is unlikely that they would pay that.....
My LA were more than willing to pay the entire £1000/week costs (minus pension/benefits) by the way of DPA. They even wanted me to reconsider increasing the PEA to cover insurance and maintenance costs.

:)
 

Cazb85

Registered User
Jan 2, 2016
24
That advice really helps.

I went to see a care home today which wasn't flashy and about £400 cheaper than others. I did this on advice from here and wouldn't have done it otherwise. A Jack Russell ran up to me as I entered the home. Tessa is the dog of a resident and there was also a cat that the manager had fed as a stray and it had moved in and taken a shine to a resident. My dad is such an animal lover so seeing this was amazing!!!! The manager is an animal lover which was music to my ears! She even said it was probable that one of dads cats could move in with him!

Without this forum I would have completely disregarded this home! I have it earmarked now for when the time comes for my dad to go into permanent care.
 

fizzie

Registered User
Jul 20, 2011
2,730
That is brilliant and also very rare - a proper 'home'. well done you x it would be worth a couple of visits at odd times and possibly even asking if they would do a few days days day care here and there.
 

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
12,997
South coast
Im so pleased that you have found somewhere like that Caz, it makes it all easier when the time comes.
Have you put his name down on the waiting list? Most homes have one and even if he gets to the top of the list and you get offered a place, if you dont think its time you can turn it down without jeopardising future placement.
 

Cazb85

Registered User
Jan 2, 2016
24
I will put his name down. The manager said I can give her a call whenever I want and ask any questions. There is one room at the moment spare. Also a good thing is that he can have sky sports in his room! That is what he watches all day!! It is definitely the most homely one I have been to.

Funny how I do all this and dad has been more normal than ever today! He asked for my mobile number earlier, wrote it down and then read it back to me! I was shocked. Then I popped out and I said there was a spillage of some sort in the kitchen so please be careful. By the time I got back he had got the mop out and had washed the floor! He hasnt done anything like that in months and it was like having my dad back. Felt guilty for looking at homes. It changed again this evening and he was asking where he was and are there any rabbits who need a home! Dementia is such a weird disease!!!