Yes we do, but not enough and not the right absorbency. So I have to buy plenty in, especially for night-time. Plus, Kylie sheets and waterproof mattress covers etc cost too.
clarity on legal obligations
- Thread starter Justin62
- Start date
Yes we do, but not enough and not the right absorbency. So I have to buy plenty in, especially for night-time. Plus, Kylie sheets and waterproof mattress covers etc cost too.
She sounds, forgive me, like a real piece of work.
Funnily enough we had my younger SIL on the phone today sobbing about her husband maybe having to give up his driving job because of an eyesight problem. He's 67 and they have no savings and she's stressed about 'how they're all going to manage.'
1. She hasn't had a job for 35 years
2. Her son (in his thirties) lives with them so is presumably contributing
3. they run three cars between them
4. she was the recipient of the substantial monthly surplus in MILs bank account for goodness knows how long, until my husband got LPA and took over the accounts, so her secret little slush fund has now stopped.
And she now turning on the waterworks, wondering how they're going to manage.
Am I sympathetic? What do you think.....?
Don't be taken for a sucker, Justin62. Get a solicitor and apply for deputyship. At least if you end up falling out, which looks likely, you won't be out of pocket too.
She sounds, forgive me, like a real piece of work.
Funnily enough we had my younger SIL on the phone today sobbing about her husband maybe having to give up his driving job because of an eyesight problem. He's 67 and they have no savings and she's stressed about 'how they're all going to manage.'
1. She hasn't had a job for 35 years
2. Her son (in his thirties) lives with them so is presumably contributing
3. they run three cars between them
4. she was the recipient of the substantial monthly surplus in MILs bank account for goodness knows how long, until my husband got LPA and took over the accounts, so her secret little slush fund has now stopped.
And she now turning on the waterworks, wondering how they're going to manage.
Am I sympathetic? What do you think.....?
Don't be taken for a sucker, Justin62. Get a solicitor and apply for deputyship. At least if you end up falling out, which looks likely, you won't be out of pocket too.
I may well apply for deputyship. How does the process work? Is it like applying for a job. Do you have to disclose any health problems or have a CRB check or anything of that nature? I am sure I could do the job, but I dont want both myself and my sister to be considered unsuitable for whatever reason. Its OK - I have nothing to hide!
Here is the link to the gov.uk pages: https://www.gov.uk/become-deputy/overview
If you apply to be the sole deputy it is likely that your sister will object and want to be joined to the application to be a joint deputy, or would want to be sole deputy herself. When an objection is made to an application, the proceedings have to go via a Court hearing so that the COP judge can make a decision. With all that in mind, you are best advised to engage a solicitor. It may be a bumpy ride.
Justin62, as others have said your sister is not acting within the law. If the banks find out your Dad lacks capacity the accounts will be frozen.
It really is up to you what you wish to happen. If you feel your Mother is happy, well cared for and is not being financially abused then leave it be.
If you feel otherwise then it is for you to take action. No third party can do it for you. Write to the banks, OPG and DWP and tell them what you think is happening.
As I said my Mom is a NH (and also a tax payer). The system knows that as she gets the £100 payment and not the full amount. She didn't apply for it so cannot be accused of abusing it and therefore that accusation of yours is unfounded.
Izzy has given you some links to read. I suggest you do just that.
When did I say your mother was abusing anything - that is ridiculous it is nothing personal against your mother - I didn't even know you had a mother or that she was in a nursing home for goodness sake.
I have read multitudes of information thank you and if you read the posts you would see that I have apologised!!!!!!! That's it, I'm not prepared to discuss any more, if you can't accept an apology then I don't know what would be good enough!
I have read multitudes of information thank you and if you read the posts you would see that I have apologised!!!!!!! That's it, I'm not prepared to discuss any more, if you can't accept an apology then I don't know what would be good enough!
These are my thoughts too. This is tough for you, but the reality is, that once someone is deemed not to have any mental capacity, it's a total game changer. Someone has to take legal control of your mother's finances. The fallout further down the line will be far worse. Your sister and family are taking advantage by not paying any rent and having your mother pay the bills. Your mother is now unable to give her consent to this situation, so it could be deemed as fraud.
When applying for CoP, you have to give the names of any interested parties: family members, friends, who are involved with her care. They even ask how frequently these people see the person. You are required to send them a' certificate of service' which allows that person to potentially rebuke the applicant. I didn't have any issues with this, so I don't know what the consequences would be. I'd guess they'd be carrying out some sort of investigation.
My suggestion is that you apply for deputyship, but also let them know of the situation at the time of your application. It's all about transparency.
I appreciate this a tough call for you, but the implications of doing nothing are, in my opinion, so much worse.
Please feel free to PM me. I have experience with Deputyship.
Hi Justin62
you've had a lot of response to the legal side of your situation - so I'll let that be
may I just, though, urge you to give your sister as many chances as you can to come to understand for herself the seriousness of her current position
I say this because a similar situation has torn my family apart, and I'd not wish that on anyone - better by far that you find some way to work through this together
unfortunately she doesn't seem to have grasped that your mother's lack of capacity being confirmed has changed everything
whatever informal arrangements were in place before between your mother and your sister, was in many ways your mother's business - you appreciate that things now have to be on a different footing - your sister is clinging to the belief that nothing need change and has been badly advised (or heard what she wanted to hear)
it must be pretty scary for her - her mum has recently been placed in a care home and now you are pointing out to her (quite rightly) that this affects her expectations of where and how she can live - these are huge changes
I am not saying that she is right to bury her head in the sand, and (to mix metaphors) to dig her heels in
and of course, I don't know what you have said to each other
I just wonder whether she will come round given a bit more time
maybe you could provide her with a written step by step break down of how you now understand you both need to proceed - sometimes talking is too instant and emotive - something just noting the facts might get through
maybe even show her the rather heated exchanges on this thread and she may realise just what a hornets nest could be stirred up if the 2 of you don't deal with your mum's affairs properly
after all, from what I understand, you have no wish to make your sister homeless or cause her family distress - which is what she must fear most - you do, though, want her to take responsibility for her own affairs separate from your mother's finances, which is what all of us have to do as adults
at least none of this need affect your mum - as you mention that her care home fees can be, and are being paid from her income - and neither you nor your sister, no doubt, want to distress your mum by bothering her with any of these concerns
I really hope you and your sister can find a way through
you've had a lot of response to the legal side of your situation - so I'll let that be
may I just, though, urge you to give your sister as many chances as you can to come to understand for herself the seriousness of her current position
I say this because a similar situation has torn my family apart, and I'd not wish that on anyone - better by far that you find some way to work through this together
unfortunately she doesn't seem to have grasped that your mother's lack of capacity being confirmed has changed everything
whatever informal arrangements were in place before between your mother and your sister, was in many ways your mother's business - you appreciate that things now have to be on a different footing - your sister is clinging to the belief that nothing need change and has been badly advised (or heard what she wanted to hear)
it must be pretty scary for her - her mum has recently been placed in a care home and now you are pointing out to her (quite rightly) that this affects her expectations of where and how she can live - these are huge changes
I am not saying that she is right to bury her head in the sand, and (to mix metaphors) to dig her heels in
and of course, I don't know what you have said to each other
I just wonder whether she will come round given a bit more time
maybe you could provide her with a written step by step break down of how you now understand you both need to proceed - sometimes talking is too instant and emotive - something just noting the facts might get through
maybe even show her the rather heated exchanges on this thread and she may realise just what a hornets nest could be stirred up if the 2 of you don't deal with your mum's affairs properly
after all, from what I understand, you have no wish to make your sister homeless or cause her family distress - which is what she must fear most - you do, though, want her to take responsibility for her own affairs separate from your mother's finances, which is what all of us have to do as adults
at least none of this need affect your mum - as you mention that her care home fees can be, and are being paid from her income - and neither you nor your sister, no doubt, want to distress your mum by bothering her with any of these concerns
I really hope you and your sister can find a way through
Last edited:
'it must be pretty scary for her - her mum has recently been placed in a care home and now you are pointing out to her (quite rightly) that this affects her expectations of where and how she can live - these are huge changes'
Maybe, but there are many of us who have always managed without the bank of 'Mum and Dad'. We are grown up people, whatever our circumstances. Shouldn't it be about supporting our parents now? Not about getting what we can from them?
Maybe, but there are many of us who have always managed without the bank of 'Mum and Dad'. We are grown up people, whatever our circumstances. Shouldn't it be about supporting our parents now? Not about getting what we can from them?
Of course you don't, and it may not be necessary for your sister to move out. However, if her family income is above the threshold for tax credits it is a reasonable assumption that the family can pay their own housing costs, council tax and utility bills. So she could pay rent to continue living in your mum's house and pay the bills. Often people choose to rent out a house rather than sell it when self-funding care.
Last edited:
Thanks very much for this considered response.
Yes of course she is frightened about not having anywhere to live. She and her husband ended up in negative equity and had to sell their home at a loss, and have experienced other financial problems, so this is a major worry for her and has been for some years.
My mum was fine about them living there for a while, but things soon deteriorated as my mums condition worsened, and then I think it became very stressful for all of them. My mum sometimes forgot that they were living in her house, and even threw - not literally - their son out of the house a couple of times when he came back from school, as she thought he had no right to be there.
My mum now being somewhere safe where she is happy I hoped would be a big relief for my sister and she would after a while be able to sort things out properly, but she seems to still be in some sort of state of shock, and paranoid about losing everything.
I may initially speak to her husband, as he is a very responsible guy, and definitely would not want to be on the wrong side of the law. I think my sister has told him that she has consulted with colleagues who know the legalities of the situation and told her she is within her rights, and he doesnt want to be any more involved than that. I am certain he would happy to pay rent to stay in the house if he was informed that was the right way to proceed.
Would the rent be paid into my mothers account?
I think if my brother-in-law was on side she would start to see things differently.
I am so glad to read that you've thought of a way of moving things forward by talking to your BIL.
When you talk to the solicitor ask them to make sure that permission to set up a tenancy agreement is included in the Deputyship application, since you don't intend to sell the property.
From what you have said about your sister and BIL having experienced financial difficulties, your sister may not be considered suitable to be a Deputy, so there may be valid reasons for you applying to be sole Deputy. Again, the solicitor can advise on whether a joint application is likely to be successful. Failed applications involve delay and further expense, so you want to get it right first time.
When you talk to the solicitor ask them to make sure that permission to set up a tenancy agreement is included in the Deputyship application, since you don't intend to sell the property.
From what you have said about your sister and BIL having experienced financial difficulties, your sister may not be considered suitable to be a Deputy, so there may be valid reasons for you applying to be sole Deputy. Again, the solicitor can advise on whether a joint application is likely to be successful. Failed applications involve delay and further expense, so you want to get it right first time.
Sounds like a good plan. Why not show him this thread? Perhaps you could all see a solicitor together then there is no risk of mixed messages.
Rent would normally be paid into your mother's account but as this is a joint account with your sister that might be complicated until you get the account changed. Does mum have any other account that could be used (eg a savings account/building society account)? If not you may have to come clean with the bank and ask their advice about how you manage the care home fees payments on an interim basis, as these should be the only payments coming out of your mum's account now.
If your sister is joint account holder then the utility bill/council tax payment direct debits can be stopped and she and her husband can take over paying the bills straight away, just as if a house had been sold or rented in the usual way. I think this would be a good step to take straight away, as it shows good faith and hopefully will be seen in a positive light when you make the deputyship application.
I agree that an amicable approach in the first instance would be best.
However, if your sister cannot recognise that what she is doing currently is morally, never mind legally, wrong (and her suggestion that she would be too upset to sell the house when your mother passes, despite what is in the will is outrageous, imo) then I don't see how she could ever be considered suitable as a deputy.
However, if your sister cannot recognise that what she is doing currently is morally, never mind legally, wrong (and her suggestion that she would be too upset to sell the house when your mother passes, despite what is in the will is outrageous, imo) then I don't see how she could ever be considered suitable as a deputy.
Last edited:
Yes, definitely go for the amicable approach and try and get BIL on your side, but I have a nasty feeling (I hope Im wrong) that after the financial difficulties your sister sees free rent in the house and access to mums bank account as a life raft and wont easily give them up.
It's not strictly true that the only bills being paid from your mother's account should be those for the care home. Legitimate expenditure is perfectly acceptable.
This would include any necessary repairs on her house plus buildings insurance, clothing, extra food and any expense needed in her home for outings etc plus personal spending. This could include money gifts at an acceptable level to relatives for birthdays, Christmas, weddings etc.
It is still very much your mother's money and can be spent for her benefit to enhance her life. The important thing is that it has to be for your mother and that all expenditure is recorded with the relevant invoices and receipts.
This would include any necessary repairs on her house plus buildings insurance, clothing, extra food and any expense needed in her home for outings etc plus personal spending. This could include money gifts at an acceptable level to relatives for birthdays, Christmas, weddings etc.
It is still very much your mother's money and can be spent for her benefit to enhance her life. The important thing is that it has to be for your mother and that all expenditure is recorded with the relevant invoices and receipts.
Last edited:
Thanks for all youre replies - they all offer very good advice. I dont know exactly what is going on with my mums acct to be honest, as I get mixed messages from my sister, who says - 'we pay our bills' - but then has told me that she cannot alter any of the direct debits which were set up years ago for household bills.
I know for a fact she would never let me look at the statements.
I will talk to BIL - shes always kept all her financial affairs separate from his as well - so he probably doesnt even really know what is going on.
Ye she has ended up very much with a 'victim mentality' - but she really needs to see things as they really are.
Thanks again.
My own husband totally backs me in this.
I know for a fact she would never let me look at the statements.
I will talk to BIL - shes always kept all her financial affairs separate from his as well - so he probably doesnt even really know what is going on.
Ye she has ended up very much with a 'victim mentality' - but she really needs to see things as they really are.
Thanks again.
My own husband totally backs me in this.
We have that all the time with OH's younger sister - between her tears yesterday there was the persistent 'poor little me' theme she's been playing up to for the last fifty odd years. It annoyed my OH when they were kids and it pushes the same buttons now.
Exactly, thats the worst thing about it all really - the ' everyone else owes me a living' mentality, which I think some people just have and others dont. I think I'd better stop now, as I dont want to be accused of character assassination. I discussed the matter with my BIL - on the other side, and his wife today, and they also said I need to get legal advice above all else.
Thanks again for everyones input.
