Cheap alternatives to care homes and assessment centre's?

[jenniferpa]

Just to confirm what others have said: no I have absolutely no connection to the care home industry (apart from my mother having been in one) nor any connection to any local authority. And as you tend to post in the middle of the night Seashell, and I'm 5 hours behind in the US (and normally finish work at 11pm), I often see your posts first and respond.

You think £200 a week for a care home is ridiculous? Well I don't know what to tell you really. That would work out to just under £30 a day. For bed/board/care/food/laundry. I sometimes think about the going rate for child care, which runs around £200 for 50 hours for a child under 2 according moneyadviceservice.org.uk. That leaves an additional 118 hours a week to be paid for.

Look - I think you have to be realistic about this sort of thing. If you get it set in your head that things shouldn't cost what they actually do cost you are going to spend your days in unproductive anger. Note I'm not saying that it's not unfair to people that they have to pay for this, but someone has to pay and as the situation is currently set up, that is down to the individual using the service with help in some cases from the LA and families if they choose.

 

[LYN T]

How did we manage to get to the stage where people are having to use their homes and their life savings to be cared for, because they are ill?

I know I've gone slightly off topic and I'm sorry, but the whole system is wrong.

However, that is the situation as it stands.

We save (those who are able) for a rainy day. The monsoon of Dementia means that assets have to be used. Until taxes are raised considerably houses will have to be sold and savings spent. That is the way of the world we live in. I still think that people who can pay for their own care are considerably better off; it's the people who have been paid a low wage all their working lives that seem to suffer. They have to rely on the mercy of their LA's to get the help they need. With more and more LA places becoming scarce that is a real travesty.

Vulnerable people who can't self fund are allocated a maximum of 4 care visits a day (if lucky) and spend the rest of the time mainly on their own. Now that is very wrong, and VERY dangerous. Better to self fund if possible without worrying about the inheritance. I've told my daughter that if the need arises she is to find me a CH near her. I only want one visit a week and I would be self funding. I told her of my wishes out of my love for her. I don't want her to feel obliged to look after me and give up her job, and have less of a family life of her own.

Of course, I want her to inherit but more than that I would want her to be happy knowing that I was safe and cared for.

 

[nitram]

"The best care home I have seen so far was in Portugal but it would feel so wrong to fly my father off to some where else and looks like BREXIT will ruin that idea...and get this , it was 350.00 a week"

If you convert the 350 into hours of work on an average pay you would get a better comparison, not done it myself but if you do it it would be both interesting and informative.

Another comparison of costs is to look at the cost of staying in a chain motel for a week - OK get a discount over a one night stay.

Now add on reasonable costs for food and clothing laundry plus some level of personal care, what level of cost do you get?

 

[Saffie]

A friend of mine lives in the same village as the owners of the £1,400 a week home near us - they certainly don't live in a small house nor drive basic cars!!! Yes it must cost a lot to run their very large care home, but they don't do it for love, they do it for money.

The benefit of a home owned by the LA is that they are not in it to make a profit. They also train their carers and I believe pay them more in some authorities, though this might have changed with the increase in the minimum wage. Also, if there is any complaint, they will be very active in addressing it quickly so act as a first port of call rather than having to contact the CQC.

I am very aware that there are less expensive homes that are not good but my point is that there are expensive ones that aren't either and your original post suggested otherwise. 'Grotty' I believe was the description. Those which have been highlighted in the media are invariably very expensive. There is one belonging to a well known chain within a 5 minute walk of my house which was charging over £1,000 a week 6 years ago so I dread to think what it is charging now but it's reputation is not good and when I visited, what I saw did not impress me.

I think that finding a care or nursing home is a very distressing activity so an open mind is needed followed by sharp eyes and ears as to what is happening around but also a massive dose of instinct regarding how a place feels.
Then worry about the cost!

 

[SEASHELL]

Thanks for the replies and I'll answer when I can take control of myself again after tonight.

What's everyone think of this. We went up the normal hospital tonight where my mother's been for a week and a half and there was no sign of my mother. We asked the nurse where she was and she looked through the records book and there was no record of my mother having even been there. The nurse then told us she'd been transferred back to that damn assessment centre again. The place where she'd just had a stroke.

Nobody let us know this was happening and she's now gone from a nice calm hospital back to a noisy place with patients wandering around, shouting and god knows what else. A patient who's just had a stroke put back in that environment.

Most of the nurse's seem good there but things are can very lackadaisical. They don't even have a soap wash to protect against things like the Norro virus (which they had last year) only hand sanitizer and my mother was being dragged about on a reclining chair tonight with no blanket right in the middle of all the patients. She was calm in the hospital last night but tonight she was agitated again. I'm absolutely disgusted with what's going.

 

[Saffie]

That doesn't sound good at all and I'm not surprised you are upset. I have no experience of assessment centres but I would think that the less time knew spends in one the better going by what you have said.
I hope your mother will be able to be moved from there very soon. I can't see how being there can help someone who has suffered a stroke.

 

[SEASHELL]

That doesn't sound good at all and I'm not surprised you are upset. I have no experience of assessment centres but I would think that the less time knew spends in one the better going by what you have said.
I hope your mother will be able to be moved from there very soon. I can't see how being there can help someone who has suffered a stroke.

Yes neither can I and she should be in a quiet place with rehabilitation not somewhere that's like an asylum. I'd advise anyone to be really careful about relatives going into one of these places or gettting social services etc involved. Obviously I'm not saying they're all bad and most of the nurse's try their best in the centre where my mother is but it's some of the people at the top who are the problem. The consultants and doctors. One of them that I've met came across as a bit sinister to me.

When my mother first entered there the ward manager specifically told us that my mother couldn't stay there indefinitely but nearly 3 years later she's still there. It makes me wonder if they have alterior motives as I've often raised concerns about the medication and asked for it to be lowered but they're very reluctant to do that.

I also wonder if these people have been in contact with the hospital and ordered them to bring my mother back there as soon as possible. It's unbelievable my mother's been transferred back there like this so soon after a stroke.

 

[Saffie]

Three years sound a ridiculously long time for what surely should be a place of passage to a more stable and safer environment.
As I've said, I know little about these centres as my husband went directly from 12 weeks in an acute hospital, via 6 months in one for mental health, to a nursing home, so am really ill-equipped to judge. I do hope things improve for your mother soon though. Best wishes.

 

[fizzie]

Also, I understand the comparisons made between a B&B/hotel and a care home. But, PWDs go into a care home because they are ill, so quite how you can compare this with staying in a hotel, I don't know.

I agree, someone once compared them to a children's nursery where the staff ratios are totally different, comparisons are impossible but i can tell you that most care home owners (from the horses mouths), expect a 50% return so the OP is right the fees are excessive (not the £200 mentioned of course but realistically many are paying close to £1000) and 50% are in profits, hence short staffing, lack of basic equipment etc in many - the 'good' ones are the ones that are prepared to accept lower profit margins - few and far between

 

[jugglingmum]

I agree, someone once compared them to a children's nursery where the staff ratios are totally different, comparisons are impossible but i can tell you that most care home owners (from the horses mouths), expect a 50% return so the OP is right the fees are excessive (not the £200 mentioned of course but realistically many are paying close to £1000) and 50% are in profits, hence short staffing, lack of basic equipment etc in many - the 'good' ones are the ones that are prepared to accept lower profit margins - few and far between

I think your figures are significantly incorrect - I doubt any care homes in the UK are making a 50% return, although it is possible that the very high end ones are, paid for only by those with significant assets. (I presume you mean return on capital after tax having used the word 'return' rather than profit). If this was the case every single entrepreneur in the country would be getting in on the act, most got out a long time ago (mid 90s), when the good profits ended. The other thing about looking at accounts that is forgotten that refurbishing is capital, so profits do not show this, profit per accounts does not mean money available to pay out to shareholders.

I have seen many sets of care home accounts for privately owned homes in different areas of the market.

And whilst the exact nature of both hotels and childcare are different in several respects to care homes, on a cost centre basis they are fairly comparable. Hotels and care homes have very similar buildings and building investment costs, and nurseries have high staffing ratios. So on a cost comparison basis, industry to industry, these comparisons are valid.

If I was investing my own money I wouldn't go anywhere near a hotel - the returns on many where I see the accounts are minimal.

 

[Marnie63]

I would love to delve into the financial details of the home I referred to! They can't be doing badly at all as they are building another large nursing home in the area. I have nothing against the owners personally, the service we had when mum went into their day centre was very good, it's just that mum wanted me there the whole time too so that kinda didn't work! It does look like a good and well run home, although on one occasion I bumped into a lady leaving and accosted her to ask what she thought of it. She told me she had paid £4k to put her father in for two weeks' respite while they went on holiday, but hadn't been too impressed. I didn't ask the details, but she had just dropped him off for day care so presumably she would not have brought him back there had it been that bad. Once they open the new place, I will definitely go and have a look round.

 

[Kevinl]

I would love to delve into the financial details of the home I referred to!

That's usually quite easy to do, google the name of the home or group it belongs to and "report and accounts" all limited companies and PLC's finances are a matter of public record plus they're often discussed on the financial pages.
One comes up with this from the Guardian newspaper:
"Britain’s biggest care home group, **** ******* **** ****, has reported a £264m annual loss, highlighting the crisis in the social care industry amid rising costs and falling fees from local authorities"
Not where I'd want to invest my money.
K

 

[Slugsta]

Can someone please show me a decent hotel that costs only £200 per week?! That would hardly cover hostel-type accommodation in this area - certainly not the kind of place I would want my mother to stay!

 

[Kevinl]

Can someone please show me a decent hotel that costs only £200 per week?! That would hardly cover hostel-type accommodation in this area - certainly not the kind of place I would want my mother to stay!

Maybe I'm not reading Seashell's post the way the rest of you seem to be, but I understood it to mean that the state could ask you to contribute to the cost of care but cap the amount at a figure like £200pw then they subsides the rest of the cost, not that care could be provided for £200 per week.
K

 

[SEASHELL]

I agree, someone once compared them to a children's nursery where the staff ratios are totally different, comparisons are impossible but i can tell you that most care home owners (from the horses mouths), expect a 50% return so the OP is right the fees are excessive (not the £200 mentioned of course but realistically many are paying close to £1000) and 50% are in profits, hence short staffing, lack of basic equipment etc in many - the 'good' ones are the ones that are prepared to accept lower profit margins - few and far between

It's an utter disgrace and there's absolutely no excuse for homes charging £700 or a £1000 a week. I bet it could be done a lot cheaper and elderly care should be funded as a priority on the NHS.

It makes me wonder if some authorities are hoping to get their hands on peoples houses.

 

[SEASHELL]

Three years sound a ridiculously long time for what surely should be a place of passage to a more stable and safer environment.
As I've said, I know little about these centres as my husband went directly from 12 weeks in an acute hospital, via 6 months in one for mental health, to a nursing home, so am really ill-equipped to judge. I do hope things improve for your mother soon though. Best wishes.

Thanks and as I said I wonder if they've got some sort of alterior motive as they're very keen to keep her there. They've already shown themselves to be incompetent as my mother's just had a stroke despite me warning them about the medication. I sent them an email the night before she had a stroke saying how worried I was. If it wasn't for the medication I'd be happy for nurses to take care of her but the people in charge are the main problem. I'm going uo there again now and no doubt she'll be in the middle of a noisy frantic atmosphere.

 

[nicoise]

Thanks and as I said I wonder if they've got some sort of alterior motive as they're very keen to keep her there. They've already shown themselves to be incompetent as my mother's just had a stroke despite me warning them about the medication. I sent them an email the night before she had a stroke saying how worried I was. If it wasn't for the medication I'd be happy for nurses to take care of her but the people in charge are the main problem. I'm going uo there again now and no doubt she'll be in the middle of a noisy frantic atmosphere.

What ulterior motive do you think they might have to want to keep your mum in the assessment unit? I can't imagine they stand to benefit from your mother being there if she doesn't need to be and her needs could be met elsewhere. Surely there is as great a demand for beds in there as there are in Hospitals?

I can't quite work out why your mother is there as you feel it is completely inappropriate. I can only think that they feel your mother needs the close monitoring that they provide. Is she completely different to all the other residents?

What do the nursing staff think?

 

[Marnie63]

It's an utter disgrace and there's absolutely no excuse for homes charging £700 or a £1000 a week. I bet it could be done a lot cheaper and elderly care should be funded as a priority on the NHS.

Elderly care should indeed be funded at a much higher level than it currently is. It's a disgrace how society treats the elderly. Good to see some of this highlighted on the main news today. Not sure when any of this will change though. Probably not in the near future.

 

[Pickles53]

It's an utter disgrace and there's absolutely no excuse for homes charging £700 or a £1000 a week. I bet it could be done a lot cheaper and elderly care should be funded as a priority on the NHS.

It makes me wonder if some authorities are hoping to get their hands on peoples houses.

I know you are frustrated but local authorities do not 'get' people's houses. The value of the houses is used to pay care fees. LAs have to enforce the law as it stands; they really don't make these rules.

You may believe it could be done much cheaper but where is the evidence for that?

 

[la lucia]

It's an utter disgrace and there's absolutely no excuse for homes charging £700 or a £1000 a week. I bet it could be done a lot cheaper and elderly care should be funded as a priority on the NHS.

It makes me wonder if some authorities are hoping to get their hands on peoples houses.

If a care home had just one member of staff on duty earning the living wage of £8.45 per hour = £220.80 for 24 hours......

Obviously a care home has many more staff, buildings to maintain and insure, equipment to buy and maintain, administration staff, gardeners, chefs, food, activities coordinators, vehicles etc etc

And care workers are on rock bottom wages, sadly.

Even my mother's domiciliary care, (which is only to get her up) and daycare costs come to more than £200 per week.

No one likes the care system we have but if people are not prepared to pay higher taxes even for the NHS, then care needs don't get a look in.

Personally I would be happy to pay more tax but imagine the tabloid press headlines if this were to happen.

As for local authorities 'getting their hands on houses' - selling a house to pay for care is usually a last resort.....