CHC - at what point do we say if we're self funding?

Discussion in 'Legal and financial issues' started by vickster, Feb 17, 2015.

  1. vickster

    vickster Registered User

    Mar 15, 2010
    5
    I've read many extremely helpful posts on here and hope to start adding our own experiences now, with a view to helping others.

    My mum is currently in hospital and will soon be moving into a nursing home. She had the checklist done last week, and we have the CHC meeting on Thursday.

    We are being pushed by the SW to say if we are self funding or not. She says she needs to know this before the CHC meeting. I've read lots about the CHC process and we're busy preparing for battle, but nowhere have I seen that social services need to know our funding status before the meeting.

    Does anybody know the answer to this?
    We don't want to be seen as hindering the process.

    Many thanks
    Vicky
     
  2. LYN T

    LYN T Registered User

    Aug 30, 2012
    6,962
    Brixham Devon
    Hi Vickster and welcome to TP.

    I've no idea why you are being asked as CHC is open to all if you pass the Assessment/Panel meeting. However, as this process can take quite a while, maybe the SW wants to know so your Mum can be placed in the NH to avoid any delay. Be aware that if your Mum is entitled to some LA funding she won't get any until she has had a financial assessment-she will be classed as self funding and will have to pay for all of the fees.

    Good luck with the assessment for CHC

    Take care

    Lyn T X
     
  3. jan.s

    jan.s Registered User

    Sep 20, 2011
    7,352
    Hi.
    In answer to your question, I can see no reason why the SW needs to know if you're self funding or not. CHC is granted based on nursing needs and your financial situation shouldn't be questioned at this stage. I would not give this information before your meeting, as it is irrelevant to the process.

    I hope all goes well for you and that you are successful.
     
  4. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    19,277
    Male
    North Manchester
    The SW has no need to know any financial details at this stage and should not request them.

    The medical and social needs of your mum should first be determined and only then should finances be mentioned.

    If CHC is granted finances should not be disclosed, equally if self funding finances should only be disclosed if the capital drops to near the upper limit.

    From April the Care Act reinforces the need to make an assessment of needs before any financial assessment.
     
  5. vickster

    vickster Registered User

    Mar 15, 2010
    5
    Thanks very much for your comments. You are all confirming exactly what we think.
    I'll let you know how we get on.

    Thanks again
    Vicky
     
  6. asherman

    asherman Account on hold

    Oct 9, 2011
    8
    Milton Keynes
    I hear from hundreds of families about their experiences in the CHC process, and the question about finances often pops up at the start of a CHC assessment.

    If finances are disclosed and it's clear the person being assessed has savings or a house, families report that some assessors then lean towards an outcome of no funding.

    The question itself is entirely inappropriate in any CHC assessment - CHC has nothing to do with a person's money - and no assessor or social worker should ask.
     
  7. Cornishman

    Cornishman Registered User

    May 27, 2013
    379
    As with all other people, access to NHS services is free at the point of need. People who are potentially eligible for CHC should no more be asked their financial status than those sitting in a GP's waiting room or in A&E. Only where ineligibility for CHC has been established through due process should finances be examined.

    Over a decade ago I stood in a hospital car-park with a LA social services representative who, having just heard my mum was deemed unsafe to return home following a formal NHS diagnosis of Alzheimer's dementia, asked me if mum owned a house. When I said she did, he handed me his business-card and said if I had trouble finding a CH (which we would be paying for), to give him a call. He then got in his car and drove off. I never saw or heard from him again.

    I'd hoped in the intervening years things had moved on (the introduction of the CHC Framework guidance for example), but stories like this suggest not.

    I would stand your ground and say until CHC status has been established, you are not prepared to enter into financial discussions. Putting these things on record by email correspondence might be advisable, and perhaps ask directly for the LA to state in writing why they require this information at this early stage.

    Good luck and best wishes
     
  8. vickster

    vickster Registered User

    Mar 15, 2010
    5
    Well, we've survived the meeting and completed the DST - all 2.5hrs of it. It went as expected. Some areas we agreed, others we didn't. Our attempts at pointing out complexity were deemed irrelevant and to be digressing!

    Preparing for appeal but in the meantime, we're a bit confused as to what happens next?
    There's a shortage of nursing homes in our area and having found somewhere we consider to be suitable, we're concerned that we don't lose the bed and end up with our mum being forced to go somewhere miles away, which would add to the distress our father is already experiencing.

    I'd fall over backwards if we were granted full CHC funding but we will be getting the Nursing contribution. We're still being asked if we'll be self funding, the forms are currently 'in the post' and could be lost ;-)

    Do we move our mum anyway? Will it interfere with the CHC process if we do that? How long would the 'handover' take between hospital and nursing home?

    I read so much about the CHC funding process in preparation for the meeting but didn't look beyond that as there was already so much to take in. Feeling a bit adrift now...

    thanks very much, all
    :)
     
  9. fr0d0

    fr0d0 Registered User

    Dec 23, 2009
    186
    Mid Wales
    #9 fr0d0, Mar 1, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2015
    Until the appeal is settled, you are in the same position legally as when you began. In my experience, if you approach a nursing home and mention the ongoing dispute, they will refuse your application. If you agree payment of the full private fee the NHS will have no reason to pursue your appeal... you will be acting as though they were correct. The whole process is financially driven.
     
  10. Wirralson

    Wirralson Account Closed

    May 30, 2012
    658
    The Social Worker has no requirement at this stage to know if you are self-funding or not. Her request is unlawful, and I have (both personally and professionally) delivered the proverbial kicking to SWs asking this. There is no lawful basis for them seeking this information, and this is a breach of teh Data Protection Act 1998. (There are circumstances where they are entitled to ask finaince-related questions, see below). I know you'll have enough on your plate, but this is one issue that really irritates me and if you can find the time, write and complain, asking them what the statutory or other legal basis is for requesting this information, as in your understanding tehre is no lawful basis for them seeking it.

    CHC, as you probably know, is NHS funded. The Local Authority (LA - which employs the SW) only becomes involved in funding IF you are seeking LA funding, whcih is means-tested. So the question of whether you are "self-funding" actually never becomes relevant as such - the only relevant factor is your mum's assets and income as laid down in CRAG (Charging for Residential Accommodation Guidance). At this stage the LA would seek financial information, but in many cases this isn't done via social workers (although they may hand you the form) but should come under teh Director of Finance's remit.

    As you mum is on hospital, the NHS is paying at this stage. If there is no pressure to discharge her, await the CHC decision. The potential problem you risk if you move her now is that if she is in a nursing home, and her needs are met without CHC, it could be harder to argue that her needs fall within the scope of CHC. SO I'd argue that while CHC is being considered, as in your view, she falls within the scope of CHC (or at least, the question is sill open) then no action should be taken until that decision has been taken.

    W
     

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