Carehome Visits

[Palerider]

Some NW authorities are saying a PCR a few days before the visit and a lateral flow at the visit.

Thanks @nitram. If authorities are asking for a PCR test, then there is no point in the lateral flow test and any test is only valid at the time it is taken, so even a PCR test a few days prior is then invalid. I would like to know the reasoning behind this thinking so that I can understand the actual point being made by LA's.

 

[nitram]

I would like to know the reasoning behind this thinking

I think an adjective best describes the reasoning - warped.

When some care homes demand the visitor wears mask and apron for a window visit in a garden well away from any footpaths explaining the nuances of testing is obviously a non starter.

Nobody wants to carry the can especially in the light of https://www.carehomeprofessional.com/arrests-made-in-investigation-into-covid-care-home-deaths/ .

 

[Palerider]

I think an adjective best describes the reasoning - warped.

When some care homes demand the visitor wears mask and apron for a window visit in a garden well away from any footpaths explaining the nuances of testing is obviously a non starter.

Nobody wants to carry the can especially in the light of https://www.carehomeprofessional.com/arrests-made-in-investigation-into-covid-care-home-deaths/ .

Thanks for sharing this @nitram. A very sad occurrence and hopefully the contributing factors will be found in the inquiry as further reports say it is a complex matter.

 

[anxious annie]

I agree @nitram "warped" seems spot on. I did hear about some authorities not accepting the reliability of lateral flow tests @Palerider , and have emailed mum's Public Health department , attaching the Oxford University and PHE article. I said I hoped Derbyshire would not follow Sheffield, Greater Manchester and Liverpool, and it was looking a little like political point scoring. Government say LFT are safe to get the students home , for the NHS and recommending for visits to care homes. Councils and care homes can't pick and choose when "to follow the guidance" ,care homes have been quoting "we're following the guidance" to not allow visits, so surely they can't now turn around and not follow the guidance I would have thought.

 

[Palerider]

I agree @nitram "warped" seems spot on. I did hear about some authorities not accepting the reliability of lateral flow tests @Palerider , and have emailed mum's Public Health department , attaching the Oxford University and PHE article. I said I hoped Derbyshire would not follow Sheffield, Greater Manchester and Liverpool, and it was looking a little like political point scoring. Government say LFT are safe to get the students home , for the NHS and recommending for visits to care homes. Councils and care homes can't pick and choose when "to follow the guidance" ,care homes have been quoting "we're following the guidance" to not allow visits, so surely they can't now turn around and not follow the guidance I would have thought.

Hmm the issue over lateral flow tests has now turned into an opening of pandora's box and the real storyline of visiting care homes is being lost admid the recent disputes over the lateral flow tests. I have raised the risk of this becoming a political debate rather than our 'experts' coming up with a solution on how to manage this mess -some constructivism would be appreciated now rather than getting into arguments over whether the LFT should be used or not prior to a care home visit (on which the evidence is lacking from some sources). The question now is how can this test now be used in a way that offers some light on the matter of visiting and if there is any strong argument for not using the LFT's -what do we do now?

The short and tall of it is that these arguments that orginate from the Liverpool pilot (amongst others) have led to the roll out of LFT's being more complicated with some dispute prior to the tests being delivered to care homes. I can't encompass all of the arguments so far because it would take an essay to do that, but here's a recent article published in the BMJ about part of the ongoing saga:

Covid-19: Concerns persist about purpose, ethics, and effect of rapid testing in Liverpool

The government is hailing Liverpool’s testing pilot as a great success and plans to offer rapid lateral flow tests to other areas with high rates of covid-19. But the scheme raises more questions than answers, finds Jacqui Wise Liverpool started its community testing pilot on 6 November, with...

www.bmj.com

 

[Lone Wolf]

Despite the latest government visiting guidance on 1st December, no communication whatsoever re visiting from my partner's nursing home - in 9 months I have had 2 emails, one to introduce garden visits at the end of July and another to suspend them in early September. The following care home visiting survey is from John's Campaign.

 

[anxious annie]

It's so hard @Lone Wolf , media and Government suggesting we will all have visits and hugs for Christmas. Sadly as we all know, this is just not happening. Many care homes still not had the Lateral Flow tests, some councils now saying they're not safe and some homes saying they don't have the staff to support it. I'm not sure things will be very much better for some, even with the vaccine. I'm having a closed window visit the weekend before Christmas to see mum. Could be rain, sleet or snow, who knows. A round trip of 5 and a half to 6 hours. Am in despair, this could be mum's last Christmas, as for many others in residential care we know how quickly they can deteriorate .

 

[Louise7]

I haven't heard a peep from Mum's care home regarding lateral flow tests or the resuming of visits following a staff member and resident both testing positive over 2 weeks ago, so was quite excited to receive an email from them this morning, expecting some good news. Unfortunately they have advised that another staff member has tested positive and visits will be suspended again until 22nd December. Don't think there's much chance of seeing Mum over Christmas now

 

[Joyboy]

I have just been down to visit my husbands nursing home (in Scotland) and spoke with the manager about the vaccine and when can the home expect to receive it. She told me that it is hoped to get it next week. However as it hasn't been trialled on people taking blood thinners e.g. Warfarin, riveroxoban etc these residents won't be able to receive the vaccine at present. As my husband is on blood thinners I was shocked to hear this news. There has been nothing in the media suggesting this. Is it yet again a case of the governments only wanting to give us good news but not the pitfalls? To be truthful I am disgusted if this is indeed the current situation.

 

[Louise7]

Hello @Joyboy If you take a look at this thread there has been discussion about warfarin/blood thinners and the vaccine which you may find helpful: https://forum.alzheimers.org.uk/threads/care-home-visiting-and-the-vaccine.125180/page-2

 

[Joyboy]

Hi Louise7, thanks for your reply. I hadn't been aware of this discussion on TP.
I guess that as I am on warfarin, after having had a stroke two years ago, I also won't be able to get the vaccine.

 

[Sarasa]

I've just had a letter from my mother's care home outlining visiting procedures now they know when they are getting batches of rapid tests in. As I've not been able to visit mum via the window visits they've had most time we've been in this crisis I should get priority for a visit. I'll be phoning them up to organise a visit over Christmas sometime this week.

 

[Kellyr]

Hmm the issue over lateral flow tests has now turned into an opening of pandora's box and the real storyline of visiting care homes is being lost admid the recent disputes over the lateral flow tests. I have raised the risk of this becoming a political debate rather than our 'experts' coming up with a solution on how to manage this mess -some constructivism would be appreciated now rather than getting into arguments over whether the LFT should be used or not prior to a care home visit (on which the evidence is lacking from some sources). The question now is how can this test now be used in a way that offers some light on the matter of visiting and if there is any strong argument for not using the LFT's -what do we do now?

The short and tall of it is that these arguments that orginate from the Liverpool pilot (amongst others) have led to the roll out of LFT's being more complicated with some dispute prior to the tests being delivered to care homes. I can't encompass all of the arguments so far because it would take an essay to do that, but here's a recent article published in the BMJ about part of the ongoing saga:

Covid-19: Concerns persist about purpose, ethics, and effect of rapid testing in Liverpool

The government is hailing Liverpool’s testing pilot as a great success and plans to offer rapid lateral flow tests to other areas with high rates of covid-19. But the scheme raises more questions than answers, finds Jacqui Wise Liverpool started its community testing pilot on 6 November, with...

www.bmj.com

Its impossible isnt it? We're caught in a maze with seemingly no way out. Whatevers suggested there will be an excuse blocking the way..

 

[anxious annie]

I get what you mean by an excuse blocking the way @Kellyr . Mum's home still haven't received tests, and the manager talks of all the training, staff time, tests not reliable etc. Have a closed window visit for my family and I next weekend. This will mean a 3 hour journey, then to stand outside in the cold and possibly rain and talk to mum via the phone. How the manager can think this is ok is beyond belief. By all accounts the pods aren't much better, but at least we would be warmer. It will upset mum I know to see us out in the cold, she has Alzheimer's, but still hasn't lost her empathy.
Government guidance is better but I blame them for not sorting these tests sooner, and funding, so the home wouldn't have that excuse.
I blame the home manager for not being more proactive in sourcing a pod, and preparing for the tests.
I see people on R4R having indoor visits with contact, and am so pleased for them and the glimmer of hope this brings. But I feel sad this isn't happening for mum, and for many other residents like her.

 

[Palerider]

I get what you mean by an excuse blocking the way @Kellyr . Mum's home still haven't received tests, and the manager talks of all the training, staff time, tests not reliable etc. Have a closed window visit for my family and I next weekend. This will mean a 3 hour journey, then to stand outside in the cold and possibly rain and talk to mum via the phone. How the manager can think this is ok is beyond belief. By all accounts the pods aren't much better, but at least we would be warmer. It will upset mum I know to see us out in the cold, she has Alzheimer's, but still hasn't lost her empathy.
Government guidance is better but I blame them for not sorting these tests sooner, and funding, so the home wouldn't have that excuse.
I blame the home manager for not being more proactive in sourcing a pod, and preparing for the tests.
I see people on R4R having indoor visits with contact, and am so pleased for them and the glimmer of hope this brings. But I feel sad this isn't happening for mum, and for many other residents like her.

Yes some homes are opeoning their doors after contemplating the new guidance. Mums care home however isn't and worse over the Christmas weekend there is no visiting at all for anyone ?

 

[Louise7]

I'm in a similar position @Palerider Mum's home had made no mention of the rapid testing or opening up for visits again, and on Monday I got an email to say that a staff member has tested positive so visits have been suspended until 22nd December, then yesterday I was informed that there are now 'several' cases in the home. I think the chance of seeing Mum at any time over Christmas/new year is now virtually nil, and still no idea when the vaccine will arrive either ?

 

[Kellyr]

I get what you mean by an excuse blocking the way @Kellyr . Mum's home still haven't received tests, and the manager talks of all the training, staff time, tests not reliable etc. Have a closed window visit for my family and I next weekend. This will mean a 3 hour journey, then to stand outside in the cold and possibly rain and talk to mum via the phone. How the manager can think this is ok is beyond belief. By all accounts the pods aren't much better, but at least we would be warmer. It will upset mum I know to see us out in the cold, she has Alzheimer's, but still hasn't lost her empathy.
Government guidance is better but I blame them for not sorting these tests sooner, and funding, so the home wouldn't have that excuse.
I blame the home manager for not being more proactive in sourcing a pod, and preparing for the tests.
I see people on R4R having indoor visits with contact, and am so pleased for them and the glimmer of hope this brings. But I feel sad this isn't happening for mum, and for many other residents like her.

So sorry for you @anxiousanni

 

[Kellyr]

Whoops posted too soon @anxious annie !! So sorry for you and the distress must be compounded with the distance involved. I live about 35 mins from my Mums home which seems bad enough at times.. Same here with the testing, I know the manager cant be bothered with the extra work of testing when she can get away with the pod nonsense. Yes its warm but it feels so regimented and the insistence on wearing full ppe (which makes no sense whatsoever), just adds to the upset. Seeing my Mum behind the screen yesterday, it really was like a prison visit. When she said she missed me I actually shed some tears and I never get upset in public! Its grinding us all down. I havent even asked whats happening with Xmas as I cant face getting more wound up. I do hope you can make the best of your visit such as it is, and its good you will have your family there to support you. Good luck with it ?

 

[anxious annie]

Sending hugs @Kellyr @Palerider @Louise7 It really is so hard, and Christmas just makes it so much worse. I can imagine how upsetting it must be to visit behind the prison screen. Mum's home have already hinted about the tests being a lot of work and will take up staff time. I hope they get funding from the Government to support this, but if they don't use these tests for indoor visits at the beginning of January I will be emailing and phoning the local Public Health department quoting the new Government guidance.
"The local DPH and director of adult social services (DASS) have an important role in supporting care homes to ensure visiting happens safely , unless there is good evidence to take a more restrictive approach in a particular care home"
I would be asking them for good evidence to say the home is right not to do visits indoors, and not having the staff is an excuse , not a good reason as many others are doing this.
I shall be in campaign mode again !!

 

[Quizbunny]

I had a very uncomfortable conversation over the phone with the manager of mums CH yesterday. Basically she is not willing to allow any family members into the home because “ the staff will not allow it, we are doing everything to keep COVID out “. Apparently the staff do nothing other than shop once a week and spend no time with their families. The Pod that has been talked about for months is now ready to be rolled out next week, but as it is a roofless bodge up construction in the conservatory everyone who uses it will need to be dripping in PPE. Mum has poor vision barely any speech and needs contact to have any chance of a meaningful visit, so this is definitely not going to end well. In fact I really don’t think I can face it.