Carehome Visits

lemonbalm

Registered User
May 21, 2018
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I will book a slot whilst anticipating changes along the way.... I was expecting them to close the doors completely again, to be honest
 

Palerider

Registered User
Aug 9, 2015
2,307
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North West
I was callled today -mums CH are opening up to visiting with this booth/pod they have built and I have booked for Monday. I can't see how this is going to work but I will try it.

I think at this stage at the end of November with nothing yet looking as confirmed in terms of tests, opening homes up or vaccines I'm a little skeptical. I haven't had time today to read through latest updates and to be honest am loosing steam in constantly reading meaningless statements and changes to guidance over the last several weeks, none of which so far have given any clarity or direction on visiting in care homes.
 

Kellyr

Registered User
Aug 8, 2020
151
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I was callled today -mums CH are opening up to visiting with this booth/pod they have built and I have booked for Monday. I can't see how this is going to work but I will try it.

I think at this stage at the end of November with nothing yet looking as confirmed in terms of tests, opening homes up or vaccines I'm a little skeptical. I haven't had time today to read through latest updates and to be honest am loosing steam in constantly reading meaningless statements and changes to guidance over the last several weeks, none of which so far have given any clarity or direction on visiting in care homes.
Its all mind boggling at this point. The plan is prob to wear pple down until they give up. No other explanation
 

Palerider

Registered User
Aug 9, 2015
2,307
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North West
Its all mind boggling at this point. The plan is prob to wear pple down until they give up. No other explanation

It is wearing and it makes me doubt my own battle to get to see mum sometimes. The only thing that keeps me going is that I know PPE is effective with universal precautions and yet no one is willing to budge on this. Anyway I am going to focus on mums care home for now who seem to be doing better than other care homes across the country in facilitating visiting. There are huge discrepancies in how homes are managing this and I feel for those where the care home is refusing to do more or continuing to insist on window visits only into winter.

Here's some guidance from Johns Campaign -hope its of help:
 

anxious annie

Registered User
Jan 2, 2019
725
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Thanks @Palerider , yes it's all very wearing, and mind boggling @Kellyr .
We're still window visits only at mum's care home , in Derbyshire, in the Winter just a joke. The council understand it's not "ideal", understatement of the year! The home had a room and screen ready to go at the end of Octobet, then new guidance from Government re floor to ceiling screen put a stop to that! Poor mum isolated with the rest of the residents, as a member of staff tested posted, 6 days back to normal, then a 2 night stay in hospital ( should have been sorted in A&E by gynae dr, but admitted overnight, then too slow the next day to discharge) so back to the home now isolating now for 14 days . She was so "down" when I face timed today telling me no one is here, I think I'll go for a walk. Was supposed to be going up as a family to stay at my sisters on 20th, but Boris has put a stop to that!! Can't go on the dates Boris suggests we party as have a key worker on shift those dates, but wanting to see his Gran too. Don't want to party, just to see mum at the window. Will have to do a 5 and a half hour round trip for a window visit. Sorry for the rant, but honestly, can it get any worse? In my opinion we won't have the testing for an indoor visit and hug by then, no matter what the general public have been told , and believe will happen! Wish Boris, Helen, Matt etc could experience this, they'd soon appreciate what it feels like and understand why we're campaigning.
 

Kellyr

Registered User
Aug 8, 2020
151
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@anxious annie the truth is the pple you mention, do know how we're suffering but they are all following a certain agenda. My prediction is they will keep stringing us all along (there must be more than a million pple this is directly affecting) until vaccine becomes available and we will then have to have it in order to go back in. If my Mum was vaccinated, I dont see why I should need to be, but I think this is the direction its going in ie everyone innoculated against infection that kills less than 1% of poplation. So far 1.34 million people have apparently died of covid population 7 plus billion. Previous pandemic killed 2 million out of poulation of 3 billion. Perspective is sadly lacking
 

anxious annie

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Jan 2, 2019
725
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I agree totally @Kellyr I've just posted about mum on one of the other threads ( so many different covid ones). Basically mum so down again today saying how lonely she is in her room. The door isn't locked , but it might as well be for all the freedom she has. FaceTime froze twice, wifi in the home not up to it. It's so wrong mum had negative test on discharge, isolation for 7 days must be enough if it's OK to go on holiday, take a test and isolate for just 5 days?
Shall email my hopeless MP who is ignoring me and ask her! I'm fighting for mum, but the people in power not listening.
Let's all take our chance, stay in if you'd rather, but we need to get economy going. Hospitals are always overwhelmed in the Winter, years of under funding has done this.
Don't say you're protecting the hospitals if you're letting everyone Christmas party. Stay in your household, bubble so no one alone and have Christmas like that for once.
 
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Lone Wolf

Registered User
Sep 20, 2020
98
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I agree totally @Kellyr I've just posted about mum on one of the other threads ( so many different covid ones). Basically mum so down again today saying how lonely she is in her room. The door isn't locked , but it might as well be for all the freedom she has. FaceTime froze twice, wifi in the home not up to it. It's so wrong mum had negative test on discharge, isolation for 7 days must be enough if it's OK to go on holiday, take a test and isolate for just 5 days?
Shall email my hopeless MP who is ignoring me and ask her! I'm fighting for mum, but the people in power not listening.
Let's all take our chance, stay in if you'd rather, but we need to get economy going. Hospitals are always overwhelmed in the Winter, years of under funding has done this.
Don't say you're protecting the hospitals if you're letting everyone Christmas party. Stay in your household, bubble so no one alone and have Christmas like that for once.




Where is the commonsense anxious annie? The risk of catching covid or anything else will never be eliminated unless everyone in society goes into solitary confinement, which would be ridiculous and unfeasible. It is fundamental that humans require social contact and that solitary confinement causes adverse psychological effects. Solitary confinement should only be an absolute last resort when transmission risk indicators are flashing red, which is clearly not the case with your Mum.


Since the first nationwide lockdown ended, the risks of transmission from carefully vetted and controlled family visitors would be very low in comparison to the ongoing actual emotional harm (i.e. actual harm, not just a risk) to our loved ones at the sad end stage of their lives. And into the ninth month of lockout, the longer this imprisonment endures, the more harm is being done not just to the imprisoned care home residents but also to those who love them. Not only is there no perspective on the risk versus actual harm being done, but there is no evidence of any empathy, understanding or commonsense in those who have the power to change the situation.


How about Boris, Matt and Helen trying a winter window visit. I had a 15 minute window visit last week, but could only really describe it as an inspection because it was impossible to interact with my loved one who is severely impacted by dementia. Not only did she not recognise me with my required mask and gloves, but I could not even talk to the carer with her because the window reduced our voices to inaudible. But I shall keep going, just to let the care home know that I want to see for myself that she is being properly looked after.
 

Kellyr

Registered User
Aug 8, 2020
151
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@Lone Wolf and @anxious annie I wish there was something positive to say but there isnt. The muddle of rules, regulations and false promises is so wearing. Now one council cant remember which is saying they dont think the lateral flow tests are reliable enough for carehomes and shouldnt be used. In that case they should just give us the pcr test that staff are having (which in itself is incredibly unreliable, hence why we have so many cases) . Im no more contagious than any staff member and nor are you!
 

Palerider

Registered User
Aug 9, 2015
2,307
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North West
@Lone Wolf and @anxious annie I wish there was something positive to say but there isnt. The muddle of rules, regulations and false promises is so wearing. Now one council cant remember which is saying they dont think the lateral flow tests are reliable enough for carehomes and shouldnt be used. In that case they should just give us the pcr test that staff are having (which in itself is incredibly unreliable, hence why we have so many cases) . Im no more contagious than any staff member and nor are you!
I seriously think that the real issue here is lack of leadership and committment in decision making. I am exhausted with the constant battle of ever changing views from different authorities with no one single commissioner taking responsibility for any of the deciosns being made. We are led on a trail from one department to the next and back again. I just hope that the case coming before the courts in spring next year offers some explanation as to the constant blocking of any remedy to this situation because I am seriously confounded as matters stand. Information is missing here and we would like to know what that information is and why as yet there has been no remedy into visiting in care homes.
 

anxious annie

Registered User
Jan 2, 2019
725
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Thanks @Lone Wolf , I totally agree with you. I shall be using your phrases about solitary confinement to the care home, who will just say it's government "guidance" in my opinion therefore not law and just needs common sense applying. And good infection prevention measures. If the lateral flow tests are being hailed by Government @Kellyr surely they then can't turn round and say there not safe for care home visiting? I think these are more delay tactics. I hope for better news when new government guidance/ protocols are out today? But not at all confident of good news. Think there will be lots of " encourage", "could do" phrase that care homes will choose not to follow. Yes @Palerider i agree , no one takes responsibility for decisions, all too scared to use common sense , and residents and families suffer. I believe mistakes will be learned when investigated later, but sadly that is too late for those going through this now. I wonder if the big charities are working behind the scenes to resolve this, as they seem to have gone very quiet again!
 

Kellyr

Registered User
Aug 8, 2020
151
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I find it very annoying that the PCR and lateral flow tests that have been deemed accurate enough to inform all of the data for Covid - the number of cases in the community, tiers that areas are being put into, people being expected to isolate etc, are now not deemed accurate enough to enable carehome visits. (Apparently one throws up false positives and the other false negatives.). Benefits and risks for carehome visits should be balanced but it doesnt feel this approach will ever happen with so many carehomes
 

anxious annie

Registered User
Jan 2, 2019
725
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Annoyed is a polite way of putting it @Kellyr . I spoke to mum's care home manager again yesterday, and still no sign of tests . She hinted at staffing issues to administer etc to family , and said they were already "tight" regarding staff. I just don't think it will happen, or if by some miracle it does, I don't think it will be two visits for 2 people each week. And of course it will be down to individual homes to decide what is best. She mentioned again about keeping the residents safe, and had no answer when I asked about mental wellbeing. I also queried why residents had to isolate in their own rooms for 14 days if staff member tested positive, and she said to stop any risk of infection spreading. Basically scared stiff of the virus, and making residents suffer. When a staff member did test positive at the beginning of November, she was the only one, so either test error, or very good infection control procedures, so no need for isolating residents. What annoys me too is that staff go home, they were in contact with their "positive" colleague, but could still go out to the supermarket, meet with a friend outdoors and potentially have been positive. If staff were made to isolate in their own rooms, they'd soon be sorting this isolation mess out!
 

Kellyr

Registered User
Aug 8, 2020
151
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Annoyed is a polite way of putting it @Kellyr . I spoke to mum's care home manager again yesterday, and still no sign of tests . She hinted at staffing issues to administer etc to family , and said they were already "tight" regarding staff. I just don't think it will happen, or if by some miracle it does, I don't think it will be two visits for 2 people each week. And of course it will be down to individual homes to decide what is best. She mentioned again about keeping the residents safe, and had no answer when I asked about mental wellbeing. I also queried why residents had to isolate in their own rooms for 14 days if staff member tested positive, and she said to stop any risk of infection spreading. Basically scared stiff of the virus, and making residents suffer. When a staff member did test positive at the beginning of November, she was the only one, so either test error, or very good infection control procedures, so no need for isolating residents. What annoys me too is that staff go home, they were in contact with their "positive" colleague, but could still go out to the supermarket, meet with a friend outdoors and potentially have been positive. If staff were made to isolate in their own rooms, they'd soon be sorting this isolation mess
@anxious annie as Ive probably said in a previous post, its amazing that all the way through this all we've heard from the homes is 'we're just following Government guidelines'. Now when Government has said visits should resume, many are no longer following them 😡
 

Palerider

Registered User
Aug 9, 2015
2,307
0
North West
Well its all kicked off in the North West over the lateral flow test kits and now the town mums home is in is also following suite. I would like to know what the issues are exactly around this so that we can better understand why local authorities and public health officials have concerns. Two of the key isues I can grasp reading between the lines are:
1. Lack of any training on the test kits by care home staff
2. The test kits at best are only 70% effective

I think if there is genuine concern around the use of lateral flow test kits then it would be only right to seek further assurance, but what I am finding diffcult is that no one has put forward any fact based argument as to what the concern is in detail. No test has 100% efficacy so risks always have to be mitigated, I am not sure how re-testing these test kits after clinical evaluation from Public Health England joint with Oxford University found the following results:

The results of the Innova evaluation published today show:
  • The specificity of the test was recorded as 99.68% - the overall false positive rate was 0.32%, although this was lowered to 0.06% in a lab setting.
  • It has an overall sensitivity of 76.8% for all PCR positive individuals but detects over 95% of individuals with high viral loads, and minimal difference between the ability of the test to pick up viral antigens in symptomatic and asymptomatic individuals.

To balance my point of view here is an article from the BMJ this week on the tests:

 

Kellyr

Registered User
Aug 8, 2020
151
0
Well its all kicked off in the North West over the lateral flow test kits and now the town mums home is in is also following suite. I would like to know what the issues are exactly around this so that we can better understand why local authorities and public health officials have concerns. Two of the key isues I can grasp reading between the lines are:
1. Lack of any training on the test kits by care home staff
2. The test kits at best are only 70% effective

I think if there is genuine concern around the use of lateral flow test kits then it would be only right to seek further assurance, but what I am finding diffcult is that no one has put forward any fact based argument as to what the concern is in detail. No test has 100% efficacy so risks always have to be mitigated, I am not sure how re-testing these test kits after clinical evaluation from Public Health England joint with Oxford University found the following results:

The results of the Innova evaluation published today show:
  • The specificity of the test was recorded as 99.68% - the overall false positive rate was 0.32%, although this was lowered to 0.06% in a lab setting.
  • It has an overall sensitivity of 76.8% for all PCR positive individuals but detects over 95% of individuals with high viral loads, and minimal difference between the ability of the test to pick up viral antigens in symptomatic and asymptomatic individuals.

To balance my point of view here is an article from the BMJ this week on the tests:

I will look into this and if I find out will let you know