Carehome Visits

[MartinWL]

The key question is why are so many care homes continuely failing to do individualised risk assessments and visiting arrangements?

The answer to that is easy. They are terrified of getting blamed if there is an outbreak of covid in their premises. Unfortunately this is a societal problem. If someone dies we look for someone to blame. The public largely do not think logically about risk, if they did they would panic less. I know someone who refused to touch a garden gate or enter a house (when that was lawful) but was willing to take the risk of traveling by car. Completely irrational but not unusual. Care home managers know that if covid gets in and some residents die, they can expect to be put in the stocks of public opinion and flogged on the village green. They know that the baying hounds will not be appeased by a press release saying that they weighed up the risks against the damage to dementia patients caused by isolation.

Changing public attitudes is. rather a challenge.

 

[Palerider]

I think care homes being afraid is an understatement @MartinWL , but they can't decide to open to visitng on their own, the local director of public health also has to give the go ahead -and of course they are reluctant after the initial rise of Covid-19 in care homes back at the beginning of coronavirus in March onwards, where hospital discharges were made into care homes with no thought of the consequences. That has continued to now impact on the rest of us and the care home sector. One extreme to another!

Anyway I thought this article gave a good breakdown on social and goverment policy on the care home sector through the pandemic. Please be mindful of not making this a political debate on TP -I just want to highlight some valid points about the overall state of social care and covid-19. A journal article published in Journal of Social Policy and Administration:

COVID‐19 and care homes in England: What happened and why?

 

[Palerider]

I wrote to my MP to ask her to speak at todays debate secured by the Alzheimer's Society. I also gave my permision with others for my name to be used. She has just spoken in the last half hour and made some very significant points about or concerns. I feel that at least this is now raised in a more meaningful way. Thank you Alzheimer's Society and thank you Esther. Here is the debate, Esther McVey is my MP:

Parliamentlive.tv

Westminster Hall

parliamentlive.tv

 

[anxious annie]

I listened to this and the debate yesterday on visiting restrictions. Lots of coverage in the newspapers today too, Something must be done soon. There's no getting away from the fact really that the decisions are political. But I expect all of the parties to work together ( as many MPs from different parties are, as seen from the debate) for the best interests of residents and family.

 

[Palerider]

I listened to this and the debate yesterday on visiting restrictions. Lots of coverage in the newspapers today too, Something must be done soon. There's no getting away from the fact really that the decisions are political. But I expect all of the parties to work together ( as many MPs from different parties are, as seen from the debate) for the best interests of residents and family.

Lets hope the testing pilot that the Minister for HSC says begins on 16th November opens the doors to visiting as soon as possible.

 

[Grannie G]

The importance of care home visits is being taken very seriously on BBC Radio Kent this morning by discussion and phone in.

 

[Palerider]

The importance of care home visits is being taken very seriously on BBC Radio Kent this morning by discussion and phone in.

Thanks @Grannie G -just tuning in

 

[Palerider]

An article in the Guardian this week. As I suspected:

Care homes pour cold water on Hancock's visitor-testing promise

Bosses say nationwide testing to allow visits by Christmas unachievable without funding

www.theguardian.com

 

[Kellyr]

So very disappointing for the many charities and organisations who have been campaigning so hard. My guess is they wont let us in until theres a vaccine which is a terrible thought...and whilst some carehomes want to resume visits, many are quite happy with things just as they are! You can see this played out on the rights for residents facebook page, and the inhumane treatment many relatives are experiencing

 

[Palerider]

So very disappointing for the many charities and organisations who have been campaigning so hard. My guess is they wont let us in until theres a vaccine which is a terrible thought...and whilst some carehomes want to resume visits, many are quite happy with things just as they are! You can see this played out on the rights for residents facebook page, and the inhumane treatment many relatives are experiencing

Hmm I think it exposes what have been ongoing issues in the care home sector. I know from my own experince that mums nurses want visiting to happen but also have concerns in how it will be facilitated when they are already short of staff. I am sure as this whole saga moves forward we will find more openess around visiting in care homes and the real barriers to moving things forward. I know I am struggling with the carrot being constantly dangled -it would be nice to actually bite it!

 

[Louise7]

John's Campaign have started a survey to gather information about what is actually happening in care homes at the moment in terms of visiting arrangements - it closes on 30th November:

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/XQ...EULA9xCF0CKu1yx2yyQxcLMd20tTBg8zYo982stBQbvr0

 

[anxious annie]

Thank you for sharing @Palerider , yes I do agree it won't be as easy as it sounds. The government needs to start immediately with supplying the appropriate equipment and training for the lateral flow tests to the care homes, so they are in place for roll out, and certainly not wait until the end of the pilot study, as the article quite clearly states the obvious that equipment etc couldn't be rolled out to all homes in the 11 day run up to Christmas. (I heard today on BBC 1 News at lunchtime that one of the homes out of the 20 for the pilot study hasn't received equipment yet! Just about says it all.)
My mum's home manager has said @Kellyr that it won't be safe with the other tests as results still taking too long to come back. Also unlessGovernment makes it law that residents must have visits, then local PHD will just "encourage" and sadly some homes won't then deliver. In my opinion Government Must :
1. Make a law saying visits Must happen indoors.
2 Indenmify care homes ( they are fearful of litigation)
3. Supply lateral flow tests ( family could wait in their car, or if no car available, take a turn around the garden- no worse than waiting outside for window visit, so wouldn't need another room)
They must develop a "can do " attitude, there is too much at stake not to).
Yes, I accept there will still be an element of risk, BUT much greater risk to mental health not to allow visiting.

 

[anxious annie]

Yes, I saw that too @Louise7 , and have completed.

 

[Palerider]

John's Campaign have started a survey to gather information about what is actually happening in care homes at the moment in terms of visiting arrangements - it closes on 30th November:

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/XQ...EULA9xCF0CKu1yx2yyQxcLMd20tTBg8zYo982stBQbvr0

Thanks for sharing @Louise7 -I have completed this in the hope it gives deeper insight

 

[Palerider]

Thank you for sharing @Palerider , yes I do agree it won't be as easy as it sounds. The government needs to start immediately with supplying the appropriate equipment and training for the lateral flow tests to the care homes, so they are in place for roll out, and certainly not wait until the end of the pilot study, as the article quite clearly states the obvious that equipment etc couldn't be rolled out to all homes in the 11 day run up to Christmas. (I heard today on BBC 1 News at lunchtime that one of the homes out of the 20 for the pilot study hasn't received equipment yet! Just about says it all.)
My mum's home manager has said @Kellyr that it won't be safe with the other tests as results still taking too long to come back. Also unlessGovernment makes it law that residents must have visits, then local PHD will just "encourage" and sadly some homes won't then deliver. In my opinion Government Must :
1. Make a law saying visits Must happen indoors.
2 Indenmify care homes ( they are fearful of litigation)
3. Supply lateral flow tests ( family could wait in their car, or if no car available, take a turn around the garden- no worse than waiting outside for window visit, so wouldn't need another room)
They must develop a "can do " attitude, there is too much at stake not to).
Yes, I accept there will still be an element of risk, BUT much greater risk to mental health not to allow visiting.

There is already a law in place for this purpose under the Human Rights Act, however that law can be suspended if it is the public interest to do so -this is where Johns Campaign are currently at. What we need is for the law to be interpretated in the current context and a decision to clarify matters on care home visiting by family or their NOK. A Judical Review would be most beneficial for all I think, but so far the continual change to guidance has meant that a challenge has been repeatedly delayed. As I said earlier the Court of Protection have already ruled that visiting in care homes is lawful -so there seems to be some dipsarity on how the law is being applied , and for that matter interpreted.

I agree the whole ethos needs to change to a 'can do' attitude rather than having constant barriers thrown up at each turn. Until there is legal clarification this matter will not be resolved. I think there has been some underestimation by many official parties of the growing response to the current position -I hope this continues to sway our leaders into a more 'can do' approach

 

[Chaplin]

John's Campaign have started a survey to gather information about what is actually happening in care homes at the moment in terms of visiting arrangements - it closes on 30th November:

https://www.surveymonkey.co.uk/r/XQ...EULA9xCF0CKu1yx2yyQxcLMd20tTBg8zYo982stBQbvr0

Seen and completed too. I’m not convinced by this new rapid test, I just don’t see how this will be up and running in all homes before Christmas! My mum’s care home had been in another lockdown for around 6 weeks due to Covid outbreak from 3 new residents who were moved into the home direct from hospital. So we’ve not been allowed in since March yet the home can fill their rooms with people who may have had a test in hospital but were obviously not quarantined at either end before discharge and then on arrival at the home! We’re told no visits to keep our loved ones safe, but their not are they of homes are allowed to take people from hospital! Just don’t know how my mum will cope if this lasts much longer. We finally have a 20 minute visit planned in the pod for this Friday. I go with dad as he’s deaf and communication between them both is complicated already, add in the confusion of plastic screen and enforced distance this is not what we had in mind when we made the tough decision to move mum into a care home for her safety!

 

[MartinWL]

If a care home admits a new resident who is known to have the virus, that is in my opinion a clear criminal offence under section 3 of the Health and Safety at Work Act and I would encourage anyone whose relative is a resident in a home where that happens to complain to the local authority and/or the HSE. Unfortunately you need the consent of the Director of Public Prosecutions for a private prosecution here.

 

[Palerider]

I just want to point out that the law on negligence divides into two aspects and this information can be found by googling. Anyone can bring a legal claim for the first, but the second requires a decision from the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS).

1. Clinical or medical negligence
2. Gross negligence manslaughter

For further guidance:

Get advice about health costs and services

Get advice about help with NHS health costs and services, including mental health. Also, where to complain about a health service and social care for older or vulnerable people.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk

Get advice about health costs and services

Get advice about help with NHS health costs and services, including mental health. Also, where to complain about a health service and social care for older or vulnerable people.

www.citizensadvice.org.uk

Gross Negligence Manslaughter | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

Under The Coronavirus Act 2020, sections 11-13 -" The Act enables the secretary of state and ministers in devolved administrations to provide an indemnity for clinical negligence liabilities arising from NHS activities."

 

[anxious annie]

Sorry to hear things are no better @Chaplin . They're certainly going to need their skates on to get visits ready for Christmas, probably result in another broken promise.
Thanks @Palerider, I knew that one of the human rights acts something about entitlement to family life, was no longer applicable due to covid regulation as the "need to keep others (residents and staff) safe" overruled it? Did this element of the Human Rights act say residents MUST be able to have visits from family, because this is what I feel a law should say, and as I mentioned in my comment previously, care homes supported to achieve this.
The Winter Plan by Government @MartinWL stated that covid positive patients can be discharged from hospital to care homes ( if this could be done safely, through isolating/ cohorts get etc), but it seems obvious, and has proven in Chaplin's mum's home that it can not be done safely. Lessons not learned from last Spring! How can care homes be treated in this way?

 

[Kellyr]

If carehomes are taking new residents (my mums home is doing this all the time), and covid is getting into the homes because of this or staff bringing it in, how can they say theyre worried about relatives suing? We could be doing this already resumably!! I think it would be extemely hard to sue for this anyway, so...Im confused! BBC documentary tonight exposing some things around covid. Sounds interesting