Care Home Fees

ella24

Registered User
Nov 9, 2008
1,024
0
South Coast UK
Similar to the tax issue I suppose:

Gran was receiving pension credits, which gave her certain other benefits and 'assistances'. She went into a CH on a Deferred Payment scheme, and sold the house, and became self funding.

Because she sold the house and now has cash assets, she is no longer entitled to the pension credits - so her weekly pension income is actually less than when she was in her own home - and things like the winter fuel payment, cold weather payment etc are no longer applicable at the same rates - so she is paying out more, and receiving less.

It seems so wrong - why would someone holding onto their own house 'deserve' more pension than someone who sold theirs to pay for their care?
 

Skye

Registered User
Aug 29, 2006
17,000
0
SW Scotland
My mum gets higher rate AA and her Carers who come in 3 times a day are free due to free personal care.

We were the same, Izzy, when John was at home. I also got free respite 'time out' under my free personal care. When he went into care, AA was stopped, but we get the nursing allowance of £215 pw, which helps considerably. I pay the rest.

And Jennifer's right, NHS CC is virtually unheard of in Scotland. You used to be able to get it when palliative care was required, but even that has now gone, because (they say) there's no knowing how long the palliative stage will last with dementia, paople can be in and out of it several times.

I didn't consider an annuity because I don't like to gamble. When John first went into care he was not expected to live long. Two and a half years later, he is still strong. No-one knows with this disease.
 

Amber 5

Registered User
Jan 20, 2009
890
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64
Berkshire
appear that people haven't considered care needs annuities.
I'd have thought many people further down the line than me would have considered this.....or is it just little known?...or do people not like to gamble with life expectancy statistics?

Hi,
I did look at annuities, but unfortunately even after selling mum's house, she didn't have enough money to put to it! So although it would have given peace of mind (which is what we all want) mum's finances wouldn't stretch that far.

They were very helpful in that they tried to do their best for us, but when they were wanting to know if she had any history of heart trouble, or cancer etc. etc. they actually said 'that's a shame' as this would have reduced the premium (or whatever the term is). The life expectancy statistics didn't sit comfortably with me.

So she is self-funding for the time being, but we will be approaching the SS in about a year's time. Pretty sure we will be asked to pay top up fees and I just try and blot it out for now. We'll have to deal with that when it comes.
Best wishes,
Gill
 

Clive

Registered User
Nov 7, 2004
716
0
I looked at an Annuity and decided that the cost of buying was likely to be greater than the amount paid back in NH fees.

It is all to do with gambling on the death statistics. The average person is not going to get back as much as the Annuity costs because the provider has to cover his costs and make a reasonable profit.

The Annuity I was offered would have assumed an expected life span of about 4 years (and mum died in 3.)

The financial advisor told me that the payments would be tax free, but this was not going to be a huge saving as most of the money being repaid would be the CAPITAL used to buy the annuity in the first place. If you kept the money you use to buy the Annuity in your pocket, and used it to pay the fees, it would not be taxed.

Clive
 

Clive

Registered User
Nov 7, 2004
716
0
Hi Jennifer.

You say it drives you nuts when “people” assume Scotland gets a better deal.

You presumable mean people in England.

The reason we “assume” that Scotland gets FREE CARE is that a few years ago we were TOLD by the media that this was the case.

Presumable this suited some political spin at that time which possible had nothing to do with Health Care but was maybe aimed at causing friction between England and Scotland... which it has done.

Like the inaccurate Global Warming Hockey Stick graph and the about to drown Polar Bears photographed on a melting ice floe, once the information has been absorbed by the human brain it is much harder for other data to replace the previous memories.

Clive
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
I did consider an annuity for my mother. In fact, I had made arrangements to discuss all the options available with a financial advisor when my mother died unexpectedly. I probably would have gone ahead with it - we were reaching the point where the money we had realized from downsizing was about to be depleted but there was still sufficient cash assets to purchase an annuity. My mother was 90 though, had long term high blood pressure and had had several strokes: in other words she was in sufficiently poor health that I could get a "good" rate. For me, while it was a gamble, since that's what these things are, it was worthwhile gamble from the point of view of my peace of mind (I don't do well when I'm worrying about money). As I said, circumstances overtook me.

Clive - I think that's very true: once something gets into the public consciousness, it's very hard to get it out.
 

lilykins

Registered User
Oct 23, 2008
48
0
Greater London
Apologies to everyone north of the border, as Clive said it is a popular misconception in England, that care homes were free for you. I will now be able to put lots of others in the picture.

Lilykins
 

BeverleyY

Registered User
Jan 29, 2008
716
0
Ashford, Kent
Thanks for the answers around the time they can go back. Seven years is definately associated with Inland Revenue laws in respect of inheritance tax.

I'm not bothered about how long they can go back (my Dad's old care manager once said they look at what he has now or the past year (ish) and as long as there has been no major major major spending, it's ok.

My exact question is this: if my Dad DID spend all his money, and then needed care - could SS bill me??? Can a child be held financially responsible for a parent? Surely they can't be as your parent is not your dependent?
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
No Beverley, they can't. The only possible way they could get you to pay would be through the deprivation of assets angle, and I think you've got that covered.
 

BeverleyY

Registered User
Jan 29, 2008
716
0
Ashford, Kent
No Beverley, they can't. The only possible way they could get you to pay would be through the deprivation of assets angle, and I think you've got that covered.

Thanks Jennifer.

I don't think they can get me on that, because I don't have a POA and never ever will.

Dad has no financial affairs. No bills to pay. He receives money (state and private pensions plus his allowances) but doesn't have any official bills - therefore, I decided not to register the POA we had drawn up.

You only need to control their finances when they have financial committments etc. Dad doesn't have any (other than the standing order him and Mum had set up to me since they moved in 7 years ago to pay me a contribution to the household).

If I don't have a POA, I have no legal responsibility for how he has spent his money. If, therefore, there isn't enough left to be self funding, by that time what are they going to do? Take a man with end stage AZ to court? If they can't make me pay, and they can't make him pay, I guess they'll just have to get on with funding him - that's my hope anyway. I just cannot believe they would ever be able to make me pay (fingers crossed!)

Thanks.

Beverley
 

Mickelson

Registered User
Jan 16, 2010
21
0
Worried Girl made an interesting point about annuities. As said in my post, this is a thread that is very topical at the present time. A General Election is looming and all political parties are very much concerned (or appear to be, such is the need to sort this 'two tier' system out) with elder care issues. A few months ago a newspaper article suggested that an insurance policy could be purchased in the future to 'off set' nursing homes fees? In essence I guess said article was refering to an Annuity Plan. Pension forcasting is very complex and professional advice is needed.

Problem today is that many people suffering with AD/Dementia have considerably more income/assets than previous generations and the system knows that and as such has created this 'two tier' system. We do have a two tier system right now as we have the choice whether to use the NHS or to have private medical insurance. I think early planning is essential so maybe an annuity plan could work for some but in my case by the time nursing care was needed it was too late to forward plan, it was like a whirlwind and the question of financing care was the most important issue with the LA not the medical concerns. If you are self funding you are on your own. I hope I don't come over as negative in this respect but I feel that whether 'self funding' or not, the whole system of elder care needs reviewing and revamping.
 

Starshine

Registered User
May 19, 2009
247
0
Seaside
OH YES I AM AS MAD and disappointed as you, and everyone else.
I am on the merry go round of finding yet another care home for a loved one, we have been through it all once with my beloved MIL who passed away 10mths ago, and here we are helping with fees again, we are not rich or able to do this, but what choice do we have, your all so right we have paid taxes etc etc all our working lives and our parents and relatives, there should indeed be some help, this disease is as much an illness as anything else and should be helped as so, where are the powers that be and just what are they listening too, let them try and cope with these costs and worries and heartaches in their lives 24/7, we do it out of pure love and care of our loved ones - not by choice for our lives to be changed to drastically, apparently the most (or so I have heard! we are expected to pay for a home care package is £350 (if we are allowed to keep our loeved ones at home, most times not or so it seems, in a care home is out of everyones hair and responsibility) , is that a week, month, goodness knows! why are care homes so expensive, yes I have listend to the individuals involved with owning care homes, cost overheads etc etc, but have also seen what a profit these homes are making too. Whoever found homes at £300 odd must have found some miracles, everything I have looked at both for MIL and now for our Auntie is in the region of £100 PLUS per day, anyone have a list of lower cost care homes in all areas, its real hard to find lists of care homes. How can anyone on normal rates of money afford these costs, its more even than a permanent cruise or holiday type fees. Oh My Goodness sorry this has sent me of on a complete rant, intruding on your post, but its all so raw so heartbreaking and just so unmanagable AND TOTALLY UNFAIR to all of us.
Starshine x
 

worried girl

Registered User
Jan 1, 2010
25
0
Hampshire
I think early planning is essential so maybe an annuity plan could work for some


Except it tends to be cheaper the more ill or frail one is so better to wait?

Also I don't think it is possible to purchase a care needs annuity in advance of need.

Then there is the difficulty ( due to the annuity paying direct to home) of what happens if a home cannot accomodate a person anymore ( ort the person hates the home) and a new home has to be found.

It's all very difficult weighing everything up. The only true advantage I can see is that it guarantees peace of mind.
 

Brookie

Registered User
Feb 12, 2010
19
0
Lilykins I live in Scotland and the cheapest nusing home starts at £550 per week.
If my father requires a nursing home we will consider renting out his house. This will not cover it but he will also be eligible for contributions towards personal and nursing care along with his pension hopefully there would be a tiny shortfall.
Not ideal but one other way to do things. All in all though its disgusting that our hardworking parents should be penalised at the most vulnerable times in their lives. My solicitor said legally the powers that be can and do go back as much as 10 years and if its deprivation of assets they expect the relatives to pay. Sad sorry state of affairs.
 

BeverleyY

Registered User
Jan 29, 2008
716
0
Ashford, Kent
My solicitor said legally the powers that be can and do go back as much as 10 years and if its deprivation of assets they expect the relatives to pay. Sad sorry state of affairs.

I am absolutely gobsmacked by this. Since when are parents dependents of their children?

What if the person doesn't even speak to their parent or has had had a limited/strained relationship?

Was he saying if the relatives wasted the assets (under a POA)? Sure, I can see that argument, but not if the relatives had no control of the money in the first place.

Bewildered and quite honestly, worried that at some point someone will tell me to sell the home from under my children to pay for care home fees.

If that is possible, then this country and it's care system is just ridiculous!

Beverley :(
 

Brookie

Registered User
Feb 12, 2010
19
0
I am absolutely gobsmacked by this. Since when are parents dependents of their children?

What if the person doesn't even speak to their parent or has had had a limited/strained relationship?

Beverly sorry if I worried you.
What I meant was that if your parents gave their house and assets to you as a way round the system so it looks like they have nothing and therfore dont have to pay anything for their care then this could be seen as deliberately depriving thenselves of assets.
They then according to my solicitor expect you to contribute. Remember I am in Scotland so maybe its different in England.
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jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
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You'll note, Beverley, that this is applicable if they can prove "deprivation of assets". So it would ONLY apply if the LA could prove that the person in question had deliberately disposed of assets to ensure they didn't have to pay for care or if an attorney acting for them had done the same.
 

BeverleyY

Registered User
Jan 29, 2008
716
0
Ashford, Kent
I am absolutely gobsmacked by this. Since when are parents dependents of their children?

What if the person doesn't even speak to their parent or has had had a limited/strained relationship?

Beverly sorry if I worried you.
What I meant was that if your parents gave their house and assets to you as a way round the system so it looks like they have nothing and therfore dont have to pay anything for their care then this could be seen as deliberately depriving thenselves of assets.
They then according to my solicitor expect you to contribute. Remember I am in Scotland so maybe its different in England.
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Well, my parents did sell their house and give both me and my sister money 7 years ago - but that was BEFORE my dad was diagnosed with AZ. So, surely they cannot say that was intentional when there was no diagnosis.

That money is long since spent (in the form of bricks and mortar in the house we live in).

This whole system is really a total farce isn't it.

Beverley
 

KatieM

Registered User
May 15, 2008
19
0
Essex
Hi Lilykins

Rules for self payment of residential care fees are all very confusing and it doesn't help that different local authorities set the threshold themselves. There isn't a single threshold for the whole country.

I can't help feeling we are very lucky having read all the posts on this issue. My dad has just gone into care and our social worker was very open and honest with us about payment of fees. My poor mum, who isn't well, was getting herself into a right state worrying she was going to become homeless and poor.

In our area you have to have to pay if you have more than £22500 in assets. (Our neighbouring borough it's £16000 and we're both London boroughs!) With all joint assets they split everything in half and consider only the assets of the person who needs the care. They won't take the house if a family member is still living in it. The social worker told me that if mum has to go into care then I should move my family into her house. (That's relatively easy for us because we rent. It would be more tricky for someone who owned their own home. I think Social Services might probe into it more if there was an owned house being rented out while family members moved into their parents houses!)

All that said it is disgusting that there are any fees at all. My dad did his national service in the RAF and was then a teacher for 30 years. He's done nothing but serve this country all his life and it's only because they didn't have that much cash in the bank that he doesn't have to fund his care in his later years. If him and mum had saved more over the years he would have to - how fair is that? Yes there has been a debate in Parliament about it but did anyone watch it???? I had to turn over from BBC Parliament before I did serious damage to my TV.:mad: The "Honarable Member" spent so much time bimbling about how many people in his constituency have AD/Dementia and then slagging off his counterpart on the other side of the house for the previous governments failings in the eighties that my blood boiled. What needed to be said ie "We need this many more care homes and care workers, this many more day care centres, this many more carers services and it's gonna cost this much" never got said. And we wonder why nothing ever gets done.......

Katie x
 

lilykins

Registered User
Oct 23, 2008
48
0
Greater London
Brookie,

I have considered renting out my mum's house, but don't know where I stand legally, it is in her name and I have no Power of Attorney. Think I will probably have to consult a solicitor to find out if this is possible (more expense).

Lilykins