Care Home Fees

[DaveCr1968]

Hi all

My father spent a short time in care. To cut a long story short, he suffered a fall and passed away a few days later. The Safeguarding Investigation found that "abuse by neglect was partially substantiated" because they failed to adequately assess the risk of falls.

All of that is water under the bridge but I've just had an invoice from Social Services for the period of time my dad was in the care home and quite a bit more besides. My dad was in the home for 11 days when he had his fall and 5 days in hospital where he passed away. SS have sent me an invoice for a period of time 5 days AFTER he passed away ( a total of 21 days when he was only actually a resident for 11 days).

There is no way I should have pay this amount. I'm inclined to think that I'm only liable for the time he was in the care home because it was very clear shortly after he was admitted to hospital that he would not make it.

What are people's thoughts?

Regards

Dave

 

[silkiest]

Hi @DaveCr1968, I wonder if this was sent by mistake and someone got across with the dates. If neglect was a contributing factor to his death I wonder if you should be paying anything at all. It might be worth talking to citizens advice.

 

[Susan11]

Hi all

My father spent a short time in care. To cut a long story short, he suffered a fall and passed away a few days later. The Safeguarding Investigation found that "abuse by neglect was partially substantiated" because they failed to adequately assess the risk of falls.

All of that is water under the bridge but I've just had an invoice from Social Services for the period of time my dad was in the care home and quite a bit more besides. My dad was in the home for 11 days when he had his fall and 5 days in hospital where he passed away. SS have sent me an invoice for a period of time 5 days AFTER he passed away ( a total of 21 days when he was only actually a resident for 11 days).

There is no way I should have pay this amount. I'm inclined to think that I'm only liable for the time he was in the care home because it was very clear shortly after he was admitted to hospital that he would not make it.

What are people's thoughts?

Regards

Dave

My Mum went from the Care Home to hospital and died 7 days later. The CH charged me for those 7 days which is reasonable as her room was available for her during that time if she'd become well enough to return. They then charged 7 days notice which again is reasonable as the room needed to emptied and cleaned before it could be used again. In fact they emptied the room and stored her items until I could pick them up which was actually more than 7 days later. So on this front only I think their charges for your fathers are reasonable. I don't know if the Safeguarding issue will give you a case to challenge the charges but I doubt it.
Good luck if you challenge them. Let me know how it goes.

 

[DaveCr1968]

My Mum went from the Care Home to hospital and died 7 days later. The CH charged me for those 7 days which is reasonable as her room was available for her during that time if she'd become well enough to return. They then charged 7 days notice which again is reasonable as the room needed to emptied and cleaned before it could be used again. In fact they emptied the room and stored her items until I could pick them up which was actually more than 7 days later. So on this front only I think their charges for your fathers are reasonable. I don't know if the Safeguarding issue will give you a case to challenge the charges but I doubt it.
Good luck if you challenge them. Let me know how it goes.

Hi Susan

The letter is from Social Services because initial funding was through the Court of Protection due to no LPA being in-place. The letter from SS states specific dates. I didn't deal with the CH directly and no-one mentioned a period of notice. I certainly didn't sign anything to that effect. The care home were aware of the fact he would not be coming back there several days before he died (his injury was confirmed as fatal two days after his fall) and when I collected his belongings (on the day he died), his room was already cleaned and vacant. I could accept them charging until he died but not afterwards.

I think it mush be a mistake because he went into hospital on 2nd whereas they have charged until 12th; he died on 8th.

Whilst the inquest stated it was accidental death, the Safeguarding Investigation did find that they didn't address dad's fall risk well enough, hence the report. I don't know where I stand with the report and never intended to take that further. It isn't really the money, it is the principle; in reality they didn't look after dad as well as they should, so am reticent to pay anything, particularly what I believe is more than I should.

I've challenged the costs with SS and will see what happens.

Regards

Dave

 

[DaveCr1968]

Hi All

As an update, I took some legal advice and the solicitor advised that I am only liable for the dates in the home, particularly since I didn't agree to or was made aware of any notice periods, etc. My solicitor was made aware of the Safeguarding report and stated that there is a very good case for getting the whole fee waived and also a negligence claim. However, the latter is really not my style; I'm not after payouts and the only winners are generally the legal people.

I challenged the 22 days. SS admitted after a week or so that they had claimed back 9 days of care from the CH. However, they then sent a bill for 18 days, and 22 minus 9 does not equal 18. I'm not that sure of their competence but bounced it back again and told them to explain this invoice and also provide proof of where I agreed to notice periods, etc. They are also aware that I have spoken to a solicitor.

They have now sent a bill for the correct amount. I have not decided whether to pay it or to challenge further on the basis that the care was substandard in some respects. The sad things is if they had sent me the correct bill to begin with, I would probably have just paid it. It isn't the money, it is the principle.

Regards

Dave

 

[Jaded'n'faded]

I think the neglect is a separate issue. The care home still provided a room, cooking, cleaning and care (albeit inadequate) so they are entitled to be paid I think.

If you decide to pursue a claim for negligence and win, I am sure the whole of the fees would be refunded and as you say, there may even be compensation though I realise that's not what this is about.

I think getting a bill for the corect amount is the best you're going to get. It is certainly 'standard' for a care home to charge a notice period after a person leaves/dies.

 

[Weasell]

I think the reason your are feeling as you are is because it is a manifestation of grief.

I would be tempted to let it go, and instead think about bereavement counselling.
That may well sound a little bit ‘ new age hippy, self indulgent’, but it really isn’t.

When someone with dementia dies there is such an assortment of different emotions, and your experience has added to this burden.

Some medical practices let you self refer on their web site. If not a quick phone call can get help underway.

 

[DaveCr1968]

If you decide to pursue a claim for negligence and win, I am sure the whole of the fees would be refunded and as you say, there may even be compensation though I realise that's not what this is about.

I definitely don't want to pursue a negligence claim and seek compensation.

I guess I've got quite a bit to think about. I'll probably just pay and that will be the end of it but as several people have told me, their care was directly related to his death after only a short time in the home so morally, I don't think I should pay. Legally, I probably should pay. I'm also not happy with the way SS have behaved in respect of their demands for money.

 

[DaveCr1968]

Hi all

As an update, the care home were paid by Social Services for 13 days of care; the agreement with SS is that it is only the time present in the home is payable. I found an old email where SS stopped the purchase order with the care home as soon as it was confirmed dad wouldn't be going back. In that respect, all is good.

Those aspects of dad's care that were substandard ultimately were linked to his death so I challenged SS once they had sent the bill for the correct amount as to whether I should pay this at all. To cut a long story short, they went radio silent for a while (apparently, they do this all the time) so I initiated the complaints procedure starting at the adult care organisation within the council. After a few days, they called me and told me that they have carried out a detailed review of the case and are in agreement. They are therefore waiving the charges.

Whilst it wont change anything, I can now move on without this hanging over me and also don't feel aggrieved that I may have paid for a substandard service. It was a relatively small amount of money and it was very much the principle rather than the monetary value.

Cheers

Dave

 

[MartinWL]

You have taken legal advice, which was very sensible. Your solicitor thinks you have a case to sue due to negligence but you don't want to pursue that. I can see an obvious deal to be done here, they cancel all charges, you drop the claim.

 

[Jaded'n'faded]

Well that's some sort of resolution, enough, as you say, for you to begin to move on.

Slightly different but along the same lines, my OH has lost 3 family members in the last few years (pre-covid) and coined the phrase 'death by hospital', meaning that a hospital stay actually hastened their deaths. There was much talk about legal action at the time and some justified complaints, but things such as 'how long they spent trying to get his father to eat something' or a doctor visit not taking place when it should have done, leading to delays with various changes in meds, etc, start to get a bit vague. And as ever, finding out what actually did happen when and who said what to whom is very difficult. Did the nurse discuss things with the consultant as you asked? Did X actually read the patients notes before deciding to move him, take action, not take action, etc. Actually it is impossible.

So in the end, we left it. Sometimes the effort and stress involved far outweighs any benefits. Doesn't make it any easier to accept though.

 

[Jan L]

My Dad was having a couple of weeks of respite to try out a Care Home, as he didn't want to spend another winter at home on his own (he didn't have Dementia). As it happens they found he had passed away during the night, when they went to his room on the Monday morning of the second week. They insisted on charging for the full 2 weeks as he had died a few hours into the second week. If he had died on the Sunday we wouldn't have had to pay for the second week. I don't know if this applies in your case.

 

[DaveCr1968]

You have taken legal advice, which was very sensible. Your solicitor thinks you have a case to sue due to negligence but you don't want to pursue that. I can see an obvious deal to be done here, they cancel all charges, you drop the claim.

I was up front with SS in respect of a negligence claim and basically said that I did not want to go down that route. I'm not sure if they had taken that as a threat but suspect they took notice of their own safeguarding report.

 

[DaveCr1968]

My Dad was having a couple of weeks of respite to try out a Care Home, as he didn't want to spend another winter at home on his own (he didn't have Dementia). As it happens they found he had passed away during the night, when they went to his room on the Monday morning of the second week. They insisted on charging for the full 2 weeks as he had died a few hours into the second week. If he had died on the Sunday we wouldn't have had to pay for the second week. I don't know if this applies in your case.

No I don't think it does. Neither the care home or SS told me of any T&Cs, notice periods, etc, other than the cost per week. Although dad was self funding, the funding was arranged by SS (Court of Protection funding) while I sorted out a Deputyship because there wasn't a LPA in place, plus SS told me the purchase order was cancelled as soon as it was obvious he wasn't going back to the home. The original bill for 22 days could not be explained, even by SS!!!

 

[Jan L]

No I don't think it does. Neither the care home or SS told me of any T&Cs, notice periods, etc, other than the cost per week. Although dad was self funding, the funding was arranged by SS (Court of Protection funding) while I sorted out a Deputyship because there wasn't a LPA in place, plus SS told me the purchase order was cancelled as soon as it was obvious he wasn't going back to the home. The original bill for 22 days could not be explained, even by SS!!!

To be fair my Dad sorted it all out for himself, he was 87 but still in control of his affairs, he had had a spell in hospital with an infection, he returned home and lived quite happily for another year but after the winter, he had struggled with loneliness and wasn't so confident going out on his own, he had to go up and down quite a steep hill to get to the Bus Stop. He thought he would try the Care Homes out, having a bit of a holiday, so that he could make his own decision about which one he would go into. We didn't see any T&C and he was self funding, when they are dealing with the person directly who is going into respite, would they actually tell them that if they die within the time they are booked in that they will have to pay for the full week. There was nothing in writing amongst his belongings. We weren't expecting him to die, and neither did the home, they were quite shocked to find him dead in the chair on the Monday morning, he had gone to bed full of the joys of spring, because Liverpool FC had won the semi final of the FA cup and were on the way to Wembley. He was the last person in the home they expected to die overnight. At least we know if was in good spirits when he went to bed.

I total different scenario to what I am having to deal with with my OH, who has been suffering with Vascular Dementia and Alzheimer's Disease for the best part of the last 20 years, he is 77 now, unable to speak, barely walk, lost in his own home, unable to take himself to the toilet etc.