Care home fees ss and top up

Discussion in 'Middle - later stages of dementia' started by deepetshopboy, Jul 18, 2019.

  1. deepetshopboy

    deepetshopboy Registered User

    Jul 7, 2008
    114
    hi if your loved one was to go
    Into a private home say for instance costing £2000 a week and there self funding dropped would the council pay afterwards or would they move the person to a cheaper home
    Or could you top up the rest but then would they still move the person when the savings were all gone ?
    Thanks
     
  2. Kevinl

    Kevinl Registered User

    Aug 24, 2013
    4,739
    Salford
    Well if the home was £2k per week then you're talking 3 or 4 times the average LA rate so it's unlikely a home like that would ever take the LA rate, some home will say that if you self fund for X years then they'll let you stay on after that at the LA rate the price differential would be too much, you can't expect them to go from £2k pw to £500 pw, maybe if the home was £700 and the LA rate was £500 they might be able to do something but they are a business.
    The LA step in and assist with funding as about £23k and fully fund when the assets fall below £14k, but the top ups must be made by a third party you can't use the persons own money to pay the top up (except when Section 117 funding which is a special case) so as soon as the LA start to fund the top up have to come from a third party not the resident's own money.
    If there is no third party able or willing to pay the top up then the LA can move someone to a home that's within their budget and that can meet the person's needs and basically your choice would be accept that or pay a top up so "move the person when the savings were all gone" isn't an issue the move would be when their savings hit the level at which the LA start funding after that their savings are safe.
    K
     
  3. Jaded'n'faded

    Jaded'n'faded Registered User

    Jan 23, 2019
    387
    Female
    High Peak
    The council wouldn't pay anything like that amount, I'm afraid and would move the person with dementia. Once savings drop below £23,500 the council start part-funding but the PWD still pays an amount (on a sliding scale) until their savings drop to about £14,500. At that point the council pay all the CH fees but do take the PWD's pension, etc.

    Regarding top ups - top ups can be paid by family but cannot come out of the PWD's money.
     
  4. deepetshopboy

    deepetshopboy Registered User

    Jul 7, 2008
    114
    Right ok .. so if the pwd had 14k and had a person in the family with poa that wanted their relatives to go to a ‘better home’ or one that was more expensive there not allowed to dip in to their savings to allow them to stay ? Doesn’t make sense in a way to me if the pwd has savings and the relative wanted to use them
    Savings on them ie keeping in a home why arent they allowed sorry hope i make sense
     
  5. Kevinl

    Kevinl Registered User

    Aug 24, 2013
    4,739
    Salford
    The pwd is not allowed to make a "first party top up" it has to be made by a "third party" family, friends or a charity but it can't come from the pwd's money no matter who wants what, the law doesn't allow it (other than S117).
    The logic is that if someone's assets go down to a certain level and the government no longer feels it reasonable to keep taking their money then no one else should be taking it either.
    No one should die broke and the level of broke is £14k after that the government will put a roof over your head, feed you and make sure your taken care of free of charge, if they do all that for free no one should be dipping into the funds to buy something better.
    Does it make sense...maybe not but you have to draw a line where someone dies with enough in the bank to pay for a funeral and settle their estate and that figure it has been decided is £14k for whatever reason.
    If they tried to change this and take everything then the papers would have even more "death tax", "dementia tax" stories to run and there's enough of those already.
    K
     
  6. Sarahdun

    Sarahdun Registered User

    May 18, 2014
    340
    My OH has an occupational pension and will eventually get a state pension which altogether will allow him to find about one third of his care costs. The other 2/3 comes from his savings.

    When his savings are spent down to the point where the LA step in , what happens then? I know the LA will takeover his pension. But Is the LA contribution to fees then made In addition to his pension contribution? Or is his pension taken to pay for the LA contribution?
     
  7. Louise7

    Louise7 Registered User

    Mar 25, 2016
    1,067
    #7 Louise7, Jul 28, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2019
    I'm not sure what you mean by the LA 'taking over his pension' - they don't 'take over' pensions, they take them into account during a financial assessment. The difference between what they are prepared to pay for care fees and your OH's income will be the amount that they pay to the care home, minus approx. £25 per week allowed for 'personal expenses'. My Mum continues to get her occupational & state pensions paid into her bank account and is sent an invoice separately by the care home in respect of her personal contribution towards her care. Edit: not sure if this varies from LA to LA. They may pay the full amount to the home and then collect the personal contribution from your OH.
     
  8. Sarahdun

    Sarahdun Registered User

    May 18, 2014
    340
    Ok - so suppose the Care home cost 6000 per month but the maximum LA rate is 3,500 per month. If my OH’s income was 1500 per month, does that mean that they would only contribute 2000? So we might get 2000 from the LA, add 1500 from OH’s income and still need to find a top up from a third party of 2500 per month (or move to a cheaper care home).

    Sorry to be so slow about all this! Mostly I try not to think about it but the numbers are daunting.
     
  9. Louise7

    Louise7 Registered User

    Mar 25, 2016
    1,067
    I think the simpler way to look at it - rather than who pays what to who - is if your OH was in a home that cost £6,000 a month, and the funds available to pay for his care totalled £3,500 (from all sources). There would be a £2,500 shortfall each month and as you have you have stated, this would need to be paid via a third party 'top up' or a move to a cheaper home. (Don't forget that your OH may be entitled to attendance allowance so that could also go towards paying for his care).

    Unfortunately the maximum care home rates paid by LA's tend to fall substantially short of what care homes charge and few homes will now accept this rate. If they do, the rates for self-funders may be increased so that they are effectively contributing to those who do not have the funds to pay for their care. It's worth speaking to your OH's care home to see whether they would be prepared to keep him there on the LA rate, as some do.
     
  10. Sarahdun

    Sarahdun Registered User

    May 18, 2014
    340
    Thanks, Louise - you have been really helpful. I now understand much better.

    My OH's home will not accept the LA rate. He is 'young', 'complex', 'challenging' (and also lovely!) - all those difficult things that most homes don't cope with and this was the only place I could find that could (they are great - if a long way away!). He might qualify for CHC perhaps .... but I am not holding my breath given all the things I have read about that. So I will stop worrying and let fate take its course. Of course as he gets older it is possible that he might reach a stage where he might fit into a cheaper home - or get CHC - or the law and state provision might change - I have absolutely no idea!!!! We're on a very long journey ......
     
  11. Louise7

    Louise7 Registered User

    Mar 25, 2016
    1,067
    The local authority have to provide at least one home which can meet your OH's needs and is within their budget. However in the case of complex needs they may be limited with regards to finding a suitable placement, plus will have to raise their budget if they can't find anything within their rates. If the home he is currently in was the only one you could find which would take him it may be that he wouldn't be moved. CHC can be difficult to get but it's worth applying for it if you haven't already. So many things can change - usually suddenly when you're least expecting it - and so many of us are having to let fate take its course, but best of luck to you and your lovely OH.
     
  12. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    18,828
    Male
    North Manchester
    To clarify.
    First party top ups are also allowed during the 12 week disregard or when the person is on a deferred payment scheme
     
  13. Baker17

    Baker17 Registered User

    Mar 9, 2016
    247
    When the LA are contributing to anyone’s care attendance allowance stops, it is only paid when the PWD is fully self funding
     
  14. Sarahdun

    Sarahdun Registered User

    May 18, 2014
    340
    we need a "LIKE" button on this site - thank you!
     
  15. Louise7

    Louise7 Registered User

    Mar 25, 2016
    1,067
  16. Cazzita

    Cazzita Registered User

    May 12, 2018
    430
    Really? I am surprised at this as SS are contributing to mum's care at home and say the AA can be used to top up fees...?
     
  17. Kevinl

    Kevinl Registered User

    Aug 24, 2013
    4,739
    Salford
    It should have said "care in a home" anyone cared for at home keeps their AA.
    K
     
  18. Baker17

    Baker17 Registered User

    Mar 9, 2016
    247
    That’s right I’m afraid when my PWD was self funding their attendance allowance was still paid to them but as soon as they reached the £23500 and the SS part funded you have to tell the attendance allowance people and it stops, my PWD was in a home though so maybe it’s different if they are receiving care at home
     
  19. Cazzita

    Cazzita Registered User

    May 12, 2018
    430
    Okay, thanks for clarifying that @Kevinl , I think you are right, the AA is swallowed up if you are in a care home. Definitely want to keep mum at home though :)
     
  20. Cazzita

    Cazzita Registered User

    May 12, 2018
    430
    Yes, I think it must be x
     

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