1. Expert Q&A: Protecting a person with dementia from financial abuse - Weds 26 June, 3:30-4:30 pm

    Financial abuse can have serious consequences for a person with dementia. Find out how to protect a person with dementia from financial abuse.

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Care home contracts and helping settling in

Discussion in 'I care for a person with dementia' started by purl, May 29, 2015.

  1. purl

    purl Registered User

    May 15, 2015
    9
    hello

    things have suddenly moved very quickly. A care home went to assess my aunt in hospital yesterday and have offered her a place. The hospital asked when she could be taken and the home said any time from monday. The hospital have arranged transport for monday without speaking to Mum. Now, my aunt is self funding, mum has poa for H and welfare and finance. We do not even know the cost of the home nor have we seen a contract. The manager who assessed is not there until saturday and mum will visit. We are happy for her to go to this home however shouldn't we get the contract checked over by a solicitor? Mum is particularly worried she may become personally liable at some stage in the future for any fees or top ups when my aunt's money runs out. I thought perhaps if she signed and put "in the capacity of POA for Mrs xxx all rights reserved, without prejudice or anything else i can think of. Could anyone offer any thoughts? Mum lives 1.5 hours away, has hospital appointments Tues and Wed that for her own health sake she really can't afford to miss. If we can find a solicitor to look at it Monday would it really be that out of order to ask for Thursday as a move day? that would give mum the chance to get items of furniture there and photographs put up etc to make it home rather than trying to do it around her once she is living there.

    I am going to draw up a family tree and detail some of my aunt's history and likes and dislikes etc. Does anyone know of anywhere that details useful things to do when someone goes into a home?

    Words of wisdom very much appreciated.
     
  2. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    18,359
    Male
    North Manchester
    Who asked the Care Home to assess your aunt?

    Before discharge a checklist should be performed to determine whether your aunt is entitled to Funded Nursing Care (FNC) or Continuing Health Care (CHC). A care plan should also be drawn up.

    Your mum just needs to sign anything 'mum POA aunt'. Unless it is a very small privately run home checking any contract with a solicitor should not be necessary.
    Before signing a full contract you might like to discuss a trial period either way if it is not included in the contract.

    Ask the care home about delaying the move, remember that every extra day will be a loss in excess of £100 in their revenue, their answer may well depend on their currently free bed capacity and requests for placements. If the hospital start doing a proper discharge procedure it could well take a few days.

    Think about filling in a copy of >>>THIS IS ME<<<
     
  3. purl

    purl Registered User

    May 15, 2015
    9
    thank you for responding. We have had a lot of conflict within the hospital unfortunately as we were insisting on a CHC assessment (wales) they refused but after a residential home said absolutely no way because of her behaviour they begrudgingly said they had to do a CHC assessment and change her category to EMI nursing which surprise surprise said no she wasn't entitled to CHC but they have verbally said she will get FNC. They put absolutely nothing in writing. We have been fighting to get a copy of the DST and even the decision in writing, they are just ignoring us. ICO involved to try and get records which the hospital say she can only have once she has left hospital. We know she will be self funding for now pending us disputing their decision but getting her out at present is our priority and we shall deal with the dispute after she is out. We asked for the home to go and assess her as they were clear that they weren't giving her CHC and it was our responsibility.

    thank you for saying how to sign off documents. It would be a disaster for mum if she became personally liable in the future and this was a major concern

    the this is me link is very helpful thank you
     
  4. Saffie

    Saffie Registered User

    Mar 26, 2011
    22,491
    Female
    Near Southampton
    Just to reassure you, there is no way that your mother could be made responsible for the fees incurred by your aunt's living in a care home, so please make sure you don't sign anything that suggests she might make up any shortfall.

    If and when the time comes for the LA to be involved with contributing towards the fees, she can refuse to pay a top-up as well. It should only ever be paid if something is desired whcih is over and above the needs of the person involved, such as a better view, bigger room etc.
     
  5. Pete R

    Pete R Registered User

    Jul 26, 2014
    2,046
    Staffs
    Welcome Purl,

    Hopefully some of your questions will have been answered by the Home Manager who should be a lot more forth coming with answers to any queries you have. It is a shame the hospital have not been more helpful.:rolleyes:

    No one is responsible for paying for another's care. Your Mum may well have PoA but she can not be held responsible for your Aunt's costs now or in the future.

    As your Aunt is self funding "Top up's" by a third person will not crop up. Only when your Aunts capital falls to a certain limit (it is hard to say what that will be without more information) and she is unable to fully pay herself can the home ask someone to help out. No one is obliged to.

    The LA involved should be carrying out a financial assessment shortly (timescales vary). Good luck in chasing them up.:rolleyes:

    As for the contract the advice above is good and there is normally no need to seek help from a solicitor. The ones I have signed on behalf of my Mom are fairly basic and easy to read and understand. My Mom has been in a new home now for almost 3 months and myself and the manager are still to get round to it.:)

    Please do not hesitate to ask more questions.

    I wish you all well. :)
     
  6. 2jays

    2jays Registered User

    Jun 4, 2010
    11,488
    West Midlands
    This is me
    http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/document_pdf.php?documentID=1290

    Link to a "this is me"
    Where you can write the like and dislikes of the person going into care and a potted history of the person before they got dementia.... In fact anything you would like the care home to know

    Sorry I can't seem to get the link to work.... See if I can find another one


    Sent from my iPhone using Talking Point
     
  7. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    18,359
    Male
    North Manchester
  8. Saffie

    Saffie Registered User

    Mar 26, 2011
    22,491
    Female
    Near Southampton
    Hence the reassurance above.

    I'm not sure why the LA would need to carry out an assessment at this time if Purl's aunt is self-funding.
     
  9. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    18,359
    Male
    North Manchester
    "I'm not sure why the LA would need to carry out an assessment at this time if Purl's aunt is self-funding."

    They should soon be carrying out a needs assessment so that their estimate of costs to meet her assessed needs can be recorded on her personal budget starting next April and set against care caps, this does not involve finances.
     
  10. Pete R

    Pete R Registered User

    Jul 26, 2014
    2,046
    Staffs
    I would imagine it would have to involve finances otherwise how will they know if you are.....likely to move to state funding in the future.

    4.68.
    The assessment of needs should include an understanding of people who are or are likely to be wholly or partly state funded, people who are or are likely to be self-funding, and an analysis of those
    self-funding people who are likely to move to state funding in the future.
     
  11. Saffie

    Saffie Registered User

    Mar 26, 2011
    22,491
    Female
    Near Southampton
    I can understand the needs assessment but I didn't realise that the LA are going to be more involved well before they might be called upon for assistance with contributing.
    So is it going to be down to the LA to keep an ongoing check on when the cap might be reached? I'd assumed it would be those in control of the residents' capital.
     
  12. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    18,359
    Male
    North Manchester
    4.68 quote is actually 4.74 and relates to how LAs should collect date to help with future planing.

    I can't find any reference that says a needs assessment of a self funder involves a mandatory financial assessment.

    The whole lot is going to cause an enormous backlog of work and complaints after next April.
     
  13. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    18,359
    Male
    North Manchester
    "So is it going to be down to the LA to keep an ongoing check on when the cap might be reached?"

    Yes, using their assessed costs against their assessed needs.

    Reaching the £72k lifetime cap for care can cost a lot more than £72k.

    Have a play with this >>>CALCULATOR<<
     
  14. Saffie

    Saffie Registered User

    Mar 26, 2011
    22,491
    Female
    Near Southampton
    Thanks Nitram. I'll have a look - though I have vague hopes that I might not need it for myself ( fingers are crossed!) and my time of having any contact with the LA assessments is now over.
    Sad for the reason but not for the loss of contact with them!
     
  15. Pete R

    Pete R Registered User

    Jul 26, 2014
    2,046
    Staffs
    In my copy 4.68 is actually 4.68 and comes before 4.74. A direct copy paste so I am unsure of what you are saying.:confused:[/QUOTE]



    No, neither can I but how else are they going to be able to assess when the cap comes in.?

    I suppose people can opt out altogether and never involve the LA if they so wish.
     
  16. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    18,359
    Male
    North Manchester
    If self funders don't say anything to the LA and then become LA funded the LA has a problem sorting out the state of the personal budget as they don't know what care has been provided.

    If their needs are assessed and costed the LA has an annual estimated cost to work on but many self funders will approach the upper capital limit well before they reach the lifetime cap causing a financial assessment.

    Care in the home also counts against the lifetime cap but may not be as high an annual assessed cost. People with near relatives are more likely to stay at home longer than those living alone.

    Working out future LA costs is going to be not much better than a guesstimate.
     
  17. dora

    dora Registered User

    Aug 1, 2007
    144
    England
    signing a contract

    This isn't usually done until after a trial period which gives both sides a chance to change their minds. This could be a month or more.

    On a practical note..
    Label all clothes and belongings including glasses etc
    Photograph and/ or list all the above
    Don't take ANYTHING precious or irreplaceable into a care home [except your loved one!]
    Copy photos if you want to take these in
     
  18. Pete R

    Pete R Registered User

    Jul 26, 2014
    2,046
    Staffs
    I agree but my last sentence was more to do with those that will never need the help of the LA.

    The 4.68 quote remains unanswered.:rolleyes:
     
  19. purl

    purl Registered User

    May 15, 2015
    9
    Thank you very much for all your comments, I shall bear in mind about the SS involvement at some stage re the finances. Appreciate your help
     
  20. Saffie

    Saffie Registered User

    Mar 26, 2011
    22,491
    Female
    Near Southampton
    I
    How could they possibly know that when the care starts being needed - uness they have millions of course!
     

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