Care funding

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moggies

Registered User
Feb 19, 2013
11
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Kent
Hi, I feel that the time will come when I need to place my husband into care. We have a joint bank account and individual savings attached to it. What would be the position when the time comes, if I was to transfer his savings via the current account into my savings? We have both worked hard all our lives and paid our taxes and so on. It's just that there is a big age gap, and I need to survive, and really can't afford to lose this money. Sorry if this sounds hard and uncaring. I really love the man that I have lost. I care 24/7 with no help at all. The family are far flung, and he refuses any sort of respite. I have not had a day off in 5 years. If it was not for my darling little cat, I'd feel tempted to walk away.
 

jaymor

Registered User
Jul 14, 2006
15,604
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South Staffordshire
So sorry you are struggling, I too cared for my husband for 7 years without any care and it was hard.

Half of the joint account and his own savings are his assets. As there is a diagnosis of dementia and your husband has had it for some time then it can be said that full time care was a strong possibility and depleting his assets might be looked upon as deprivation of assets and the money would have to be returned. Do you have LPA for finance?
 

Silver Bowler

Registered User
May 8, 2013
13
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Surrey
Deprivation of Assets.

Jaymor's post is a bit worrying.
I have a poor memory but this could be due to my age, 85.
A neurologist sent me for tests. 'Mild cognitive impairment'. Asked my GP if this meant I could expect to go into long term care. He replied that nobody could tell at this stage. Of course I have no evidence of this if I was accused of deprivation of assets.
My wife has held more of savings than me for tax reasons.
Equally my will does NOT give her all my assets. It goes into a trust to be for assistance to various members of my family. That dates back to the time when the estate duty exemption was not transferred to the surviving spouse.
Any comments on how this might be treated?
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
30,072
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Bury
Silver Bowler

The correct term is deliberate deprivation of assets, have a read through http://www.ageuk.org.uk/Documents/E...est_for_care_home_provision_fcs.pdf?dtrk=true
As the funds were transferred to your wife long before there was any indication that you might require residential care and you had a good reason for doing so it is hard to see how your intention could have been deliberate deprivation.

The terms of your will do not matter, the only claim the LA could have against the estate would be if you owed them money at the time of your death.
 

Cloverland

Registered User
Jun 9, 2014
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I've re-written this a few times to try and explain without scaring anyone. Basically, half the money in a joint account is yours, any savings accounts from the joint account are usually in one name or the other, usually first name on the joint account. Savings accounts can be set up from joint accounts but unless you specifically open in your name won't be in your name.

Once a person lacks mental capacity even with on line banking, you technically can't access any account not in your name as other account holder would have their own login details. I hope that all makes sense.

I would strongly advise you to start the process for LPA

As for deprivation of assets, basically if funded because of savings between £14k and £23k approx then any money moved or given away can be treated as if the person still has money and therefore taken into account.

Hope the following links explain better than I probably have, somehow, don't think claiming forgetting would help, if only, we could all do that.

http://www.ageuk.org.uk/Documents/E...est_for_care_home_provision_fcs.pdf?dtrk=true

http://www.ageuk.org.uk/Documents/E...rmanent_care_home_provision_fcs.pdf?dtrk=true

https://www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney
 

Cloverland

Registered User
Jun 9, 2014
244
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Jaymor's post is a bit worrying.
I have a poor memory but this could be due to my age, 85.
A neurologist sent me for tests. 'Mild cognitive impairment'. Asked my GP if this meant I could expect to go into long term care. He replied that nobody could tell at this stage. Of course I have no evidence of this if I was accused of deprivation of assets.
My wife has held more of savings than me for tax reasons.
Equally my will does NOT give her all my assets. It goes into a trust to be for assistance to various members of my family. That dates back to the time when the estate duty exemption was not transferred to the surviving spouse.
Any comments on how this might be treated?

Don't think it matters what the will states unless the person has died.
 

realist1234

Registered User
Oct 30, 2014
108
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I would suggest you move at least some of his money now. The reality is , when he needs to be moved to a care home, the council will likely only ask for a few months of bank statements as confirmation of assets. In my view, care for someone with dementia should be free as it is a physical brain disease and should be treated as such on the NHS. Im sure your husband would want you to have as much of his money as possible for your future, given his decline. Indeed most couples view their savings as ' whats yours is mine and whats mine is yours'. I know if my parents had known that their children would have effectively been left with no inheritance (including their home) after years of hard work and saving, because the government has taken it all to pay for home fees, they would have been disgusted. The current system is perverted and should be treated as such.



Hi, I feel that the time will come when I need to place my husband into care. We have a joint bank account and individual savings attached to it. What would be the position when the time comes, if I was to transfer his savings via the current account into my savings? We have both worked hard all our lives and paid our taxes and so on. It's just that there is a big age gap, and I need to survive, and really can't afford to lose this money. Sorry if this sounds hard and uncaring. I really love the man that I have lost. I care 24/7 with no help at all. The family are far flung, and he refuses any sort of respite. I have not had a day off in 5 years. If it was not for my darling little cat, I'd feel tempted to walk away.
 

WILLIAMR

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Apr 12, 2014
1,078
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I would suggest you move at least some of his money now. The reality is , when he needs to be moved to a care home, the council will likely only ask for a few months of bank statements as confirmation of assets. In my view, care for someone with dementia should be free as it is a physical brain disease and should be treated as such on the NHS. Im sure your husband would want you to have as much of his money as possible for your future, given his decline. Indeed most couples view their savings as ' whats yours is mine and whats mine is yours'. I know if my parents had known that their children would have effectively been left with no inheritance (including their home) after years of hard work and saving, because the government has taken it all to pay for home fees, they would have been disgusted. The current system is perverted and should be treated as such.

Hi realist1234

I do know of a case where the council went back for more than a few months as a father and daughter owned a house worth about £500,000 which the council could not take in to account for care fees purposes and the father only had about £8,000 in savings.
The daughter was also driving a reasonably expensive car.
As far as I know nothing unlawful was found but I don't think the social worker regarded the situation as morally right.

William
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
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Near Southampton
Indeed most couples view their savings as ' whats yours is mine and whats mine is yours'.


They may well do so but I can assure you that the Local Aythority does not.
Even a joint current account has to be divided into two and when they start to contribute and woe betide you if have you used some of your husband's share for utility bills when he is no longer living at home.

I know if my parents had known that their children would have effectively been left with no inheritance (including their home) after years of hard work and saving, because the government has taken it all to pay for home fees, they would have been disgusted. The current system is perverted and should be treated as such.
That's as may be but inheritance doesn't come into play until parents die.
Most people also save, if they can, for their old age, so in the meantime, savings should be used for the benefit of themselves to able to live in reasonable comfort.
This includes finding the best care home to provide this.
It costs to live anywhere.

p.s. I was asked for bank statements going back one year when my husband was assessed for a nursing home.
 

WILLIAMR

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Apr 12, 2014
1,078
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They may well do so but I can assure you that the Local Aythority does not.
Even a joint current account has to be divided into two and when they start to contribute and woe betide you if have you used some of your husband's share for utility bills when he is no longer living at home.


That's as may be but inheritance doesn't come into play until parents die.
Most people also save, if they can, for their old age, so in the meantime, savings should be used for the benefit of themselves to able to live in reasonable comfort.
This includes finding the best care home to provide this.
It costs to live anywhere.

p.s. I was asked for bank statements going back one year when my husband was assessed for a nursing home.

Hi Saffie

You said ''but inheritance doesn't come into play until parents die''.

I see no reason why one parent should not be allowed to leave their share of the estate to the offspring to prevent another family getting it should the surviving spouse marry somebody else.
It may be a moot point fairness wise if the offspring owns half of the house none of it can be taken in to account for care home fees if they do not live in the property but I can see it from another point of view if the offspring has been living in it and spent money on the property.
I know a lady who moved in with her father and she had spent £30,000 on the property in about 6 months.

William
 

PaddyJim

Registered User
Jan 19, 2013
48
0
North Yorkshire
Good advice

You have already received a lot of good advice, however, we had a similar problem in so far as my fathers assets via an ISA had been transferred to my mum (long story) and the council would not accept they were not her assets and assessed her accordingly. This meant she had to pay the full costs of her CH. We appealed and eventually the council relented but it took persistence and effort. Additionally, my father took legal advice and changed his will to avoid mum receiving any money on his death.
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
0
Near Southampton
You said ''but inheritance doesn't come into play until parents die''.

I see no reason why one parent should not be allowed to leave their share of the estate to the offspring to prevent another family getting it should the surviving spouse marry somebody else.
It may be a moot point fairness wise if the offspring owns half of the house none of it can be taken in to account for care home fees if they do not live in the property but I can see it from another point of view if the offspring has been living in it and spent money on the property.
I know a lady who moved in with her father and she had spent £30,000 on the property in about 6 months.

William, yet again, you are not answering the question of the original poster as property was not mentioned. Instead you are confusing the issue by answering with your own agenda regarding property tranference.
...........and yes, you cannot inherit until the person who leaves an inheritance, dies.
 

WILLIAMR

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Apr 12, 2014
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William, yet again, you are not answering the question of the original poster as property was not mentioned. Instead you are confusing the issue by answering with your own agenda regarding property tranference.
...........and yes, you cannot inherit until the person who leaves an inheritance, dies.

Saffie

You are correct in saying you cannot inherit until the person who leaves an inheritance, dies.[/QUOTE]

An offspring can not sell the house the surviving parent is in without his or her agreement but have inherited the deceased parents half when only one parent has died.

William
 

LYN T

Registered User
Aug 30, 2012
6,958
0
Brixham Devon
Saffie

You are correct in saying you cannot inherit until the person who leaves an inheritance, dies.

An offspring can not sell the house the surviving parent is in without his or her agreement but have inherited the deceased parents half when only one parent has died.

William[/QUOTE]

William I am so glad that we all now appear to agree that inheritance only comes into play when a person dies. However, perhaps you could share your knowledge/experience regarding the OP's original query rather than property issues.
The OP was asking whether it was possible to transfer her OH's savings to her savings.
A very important issue I'm sure you will agree.
 

garnuft

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
6,585
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I would suggest you move at least some of his money now. The reality is , when he needs to be moved to a care home, the council will likely only ask for a few months of bank statements as confirmation of assets. In my view, care for someone with dementia should be free as it is a physical brain disease and should be treated as such on the NHS. Im sure your husband would want you to have as much of his money as possible for your future, given his decline. Indeed most couples view their savings as ' whats yours is mine and whats mine is yours'. I know if my parents had known that their children would have effectively been left with no inheritance (including their home) after years of hard work and saving, because the government has taken it all to pay for home fees, they would have been disgusted. The current system is perverted and should be treated as such.

I don't think transferring money and hoping no-one will find out is a good idea at all.

I agree, people who need social care should not have to pay for it, however everyone who needs long term care pays for it unless their condition meets the criteria for CHC.

That means paraplegics, congenitally disabled, cancer survivors, stroke survivors...the list goes on.

What we, as a Society have to decide is...how do we fund this?

My answer would be that taxes should be raised on a growing scale so wealth isn't passed from generation to generation.

If debt can't be carried forward...referencing the austerity measures and how 'we don't want to leave future generations paying for our care'...

Why should wealth?

How do we all have a pocketful of money and yet people who need care are still being left abandoned apart from a few minutes visit a day?

That is what worries me...not whether people who've paid taxes and worked...oh! and had a lifetime of healthcare and education, child benefit, pension, free tv licence, free bus pass, winter fuel allowance....oh! and had children that have had education and healthcare, child benefit, tax credits...and expect a pension.

Where do we think the money comes from to pay for services?
 

WILLIAMR

Account Closed
Apr 12, 2014
1,078
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Garnuft

You said ''My answer would be that taxes should be raised on a growing scale so wealth isn't passed from generation to generation''.

If that happens nobody is going to bother to save if they know their wealth will just go to the government.
I have reasonable savings, house etc and something could happen to my wife and myself tomorrow.
At least we know our wealth will be spent wisely by our 2 daughters and 4 granddaughters.

William
 

garnuft

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
6,585
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Who do you think the Government is William?

Are you so remote that you don't realise it is you? your children, your grandchildren?

Do you think you would be able to live in a society that didn't have support?

Do you think because a person has personal wealth they are safe?

Do you think you have paid enough into the system to pay your pension, bus pass and winter fuel allowance as well as every time you've 'popped' into the Doctors?

Have you earned enough wages to pay tax for every fire-fighter, every ambulance driver, every nurse, every Midwife, every health care worker, every cleaner, every cook, every receptionist, every bin man...does 40% on your earnings pay for all of that?

I DON'T THINK SO.
 
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Pickles53

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
2,474
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Radcliffe on Trent
If the demand for health and social care services continues to increase (partly because families try to arrange their finances so that they are eligible for LA-funded care under current rules) and taxes remain at current levels, there will clearly not be enough to go round.

The most likely outcome is that the rules will be changed in some way to increase the number of people who have to fund their own social and health care so the next generation will most likely have to look after themselves. This is pretty much how it works (or rather doesn't work) in the USA. We lived there for many years and I I knew families who were bankrupted and/or ended up homeless because of the ongoing cost of medical and social care for a family member.
 

garnuft

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
6,585
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...Physiotherapist, Occupational Therapist, Psychiatrist, Community Mental Health Nurse, District Nurse, Urgent Care Centre, Podiatrist, Optometrist, Dentist, Speech and Language Therapist, Educational Psychologist, Psychologist, Chiropodist, Optician, Pharmacist...

40% has to spread a LONG way.
And we haven't even started on the costs of Policing, Armed services and local services.

Or William, is it just if YOU haven't used the service it's a waste of funds?
Do you expect everybody else to contribute to the 'peripheral' services...in case you or yours might be desperate to use them?

What if they weren't there?
 
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