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Care funding, nursing & dementia needs, money running out.

Sally66

Registered User
Jan 17, 2015
13
Dad was in a residential care home for nearly a year and was self-funding. His physical and mental health deteriorated quickly and a place was found for him at an EMI Residential Home which also has a nursing section. He has been there a couple of months in the residential section. Unfortunately, his physical health has deteriorated even more - to the extent that he needs to be transferred to the nursing section. His Community Psychiatric Nurse says his nursing needs are many, e.g. skin issues, incontinence, weight loss, pain management, etc but not complex/complicated as such; he believes that dad needs to be transferred to the nursing section.
Dad's CPN is arranging a meeting asap to discuss dad's care - he, myself, the home manager and social worker will be present.
My question is - would dad be entitled to any help with fees? He has enough money to cover fees at their present fees for nearly two years but I'm assuming that if he moves to the nursing section the fees will increase. I have never claimed a penny for myself as dad's carer over the last 10 years nor for dad himself and I know nothing about what is available. The only help dad has had is with things like adaptations to his WC and bathroom before he moved into residential care. It was a job getting him to agree to those because he is very proud and I suppose that has rubbed off on me too.
While dad was in the original residential care home, two of the residents moved into nursing homes and their relatives told me that all their care was being paid for. I asked how that came about and they said that people who had nursing needs and dementia did not have to pay for their care. I find that hard to believe!
I am becoming more and more worried about what will happen when dad's money runs out. Dad is in his late seventies and from what I've read vascular dementia can go on for years.
Sorry to waffle on. Thank you.
 

WILLIAMR

Account Closed
Apr 12, 2014
1,078
Dad was in a residential care home for nearly a year and was self-funding. His physical and mental health deteriorated quickly and a place was found for him at an EMI Residential Home which also has a nursing section. He has been there a couple of months in the residential section. Unfortunately, his physical health has deteriorated even more - to the extent that he needs to be transferred to the nursing section. His Community Psychiatric Nurse says his nursing needs are many, e.g. skin issues, incontinence, weight loss, pain management, etc but not complex/complicated as such; he believes that dad needs to be transferred to the nursing section.
Dad's CPN is arranging a meeting asap to discuss dad's care - he, myself, the home manager and social worker will be present.
My question is - would dad be entitled to any help with fees? He has enough money to cover fees at their present fees for nearly two years but I'm assuming that if he moves to the nursing section the fees will increase. I have never claimed a penny for myself as dad's carer over the last 10 years nor for dad himself and I know nothing about what is available. The only help dad has had is with things like adaptations to his WC and bathroom before he moved into residential care. It was a job getting him to agree to those because he is very proud and I suppose that has rubbed off on me too.
While dad was in the original residential care home, two of the residents moved into nursing homes and their relatives told me that all their care was being paid for. I asked how that came about and they said that people who had nursing needs and dementia did not have to pay for their care. I find that hard to believe!
I am becoming more and more worried about what will happen when dad's money runs out. Dad is in his late seventies and from what I've read vascular dementia can go on for years.
Sorry to waffle on. Thank you.
http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/2392.aspx?CategoryID=68

Take a look at the above in respect of total funding.
Also ask for a Social Services Financial assessment.
There is no way you can be forced to pay.


William
 

jaymor

Volunteer Moderator
Jul 14, 2006
13,011
England
If your Father needs nursing care then the NHS will pay the nursing home directly for his nursing care and he will continue to pay as he does now for his actual care.

If his needs are primarily health needs then he can be assessed for full CHC.

hopefully this is what will be discussed when you have your meeting.
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,448
Hi Sally and welcome to Talking Point.

Well you right: it's never as simple as "you need nursing care, your fees are paid completely". What I assume these other people were talking about is NHS Continuing Care. This might be attainable although quite possibly not. He should however be entitled to NHS funded nursing care. Have a look at this fact sheet which explains the difference. http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=104

You mention that you've never claimed anything: are you saying that your father is not receiving Attendance Allowance? If that's the case you should apply now, giving the date of your father's diagnosis, or at the very least, the date he entered full-time care: this benefit isn't backdated but there is a potential 6 month wait period which in your case you can quite justifiably avoided since he has clearly been entitled to it for the last year. Fact sheet here http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=51

When you say your father has sufficient funds to pay for care for another two years, are you aware that when his savings reach the £23250 level, the LA will start to make a contribution?

While William is correct that you are not responsible for paying for your father's care his post is, in my opinion, somewhat of an over simplification.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
20,297
North Manchester
"...If your Father needs nursing care then the NHS will pay the nursing home directly for his nursing care and he will continue to pay as he does now for his actual care..."

Several homes have self funding rates for residential care and nursing care with a differential greater than the FNC contribution by the NHS.

This means that even with FNC the resident pays more on transfer.
 

WILLIAMR

Account Closed
Apr 12, 2014
1,078
Hi Sally and welcome to Talking Point.

Well you right: it's never as simple as "you need nursing care, your fees are paid completely". What I assume these other people were talking about is NHS Continuing Care. This might be attainable although quite possibly not. He should however be entitled to NHS funded nursing care. Have a look at this fact sheet which explains the difference. http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=104

You mention that you've never claimed anything: are you saying that your father is not receiving Attendance Allowance? If that's the case you should apply now, giving the date of your father's diagnosis, or at the very least, the date he entered full-time care: this benefit isn't backdated but there is a potential 6 month wait period which in your case you can quite justifiably avoided since he has clearly been entitled to it for the last year. Fact sheet here http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=51

When you say your father has sufficient funds to pay for care for another two years, are you aware that when his savings reach the £23250 level, the LA will start to make a contribution?

While William is correct that you are not responsible for paying for your father's care his post is, in my opinion, somewhat of an over simplification.
Hi jenniferpa

What I meant was Sally is not personally liable to pay for her father's care.
As I think you know the Social Worker wanted my bungalow sold to pay for my step mother's care and in 2 cases I helped with the Social Worker wanted the offspring to downsize their houses even though they were the 100% owners.
These have been cases where the houses have been expensive for the area.
The offspring can not be held liable for the parents care fees even if they are multi millionaires.

William
 

Sally66

Registered User
Jan 17, 2015
13
Thank you very much William. There is a lot of reading in that link which contains some very useful information.
 

Sally66

Registered User
Jan 17, 2015
13
If your Father needs nursing care then the NHS will pay the nursing home directly for his nursing care and he will continue to pay as he does now for his actual care.

If his needs are primarily health needs then he can be assessed for full CHC.

hopefully this is what will be discussed when you have your meeting.
Hi Jaymor and thanks for your reply.
I remember the care home manager saying something about dad's "needs" the other day.
He said something like - your dad's dementia needs will have to be scored against his nursing needs. The need that scores highest will determine the type of care he will receive. No idea how that is done - I wonder if this is what will be discussed at the meeting.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
20,297
North Manchester
"...It is a pity you did not claim Attendance Allowance before because I think your dad would have been entitled to this, but this benefit stops when a person goes into a care home..."

As OP's dad is currently self funding AA can be paid, it would cease after 28 days if CHC was obtained.
 

Sally66

Registered User
Jan 17, 2015
13
Hi Jennifer - thank you for the welcome and your very useful reply. You have clarified several things for me and I feel easier now. It's such a minefield, why does it have to be so complicated. thank goodness there are people like you out there.
 

Sally66

Registered User
Jan 17, 2015
13
Hello Sally66

I would apply for Continuing Health Care as your dad sounds as if his health needs are quite similar to what my mum's used to be. She had complex health needs, and also other health issues as well as her dementia and her challenging behaviour was also a factor in her qualifying for CHC. It is a pity you did not claim Attendance Allowance before because I think your dad would have been entitled to this, but this benefit stops when a person goes into a care home.

You do not have to pay your dad's care home fees, his financial situation is nothing to do with yours, they are two separate issues. CHC is not means tested, and any property or savings he has are not taken into account, CHC is based on a person's health needs.
Hi Lexy.
Thank you very much for your reply. Dad's CPN has told me that his health needs are not complex although they are many; I can think of at least half a dozen ailments off the top of my head, apart from the dementia. His dementia is not challenging. He was always a very easy going and placid person and I hope it will stay that way! Just hoping the planned meeting will sort things out. Thanks again for your kind reply.
 

Sally66

Registered User
Jan 17, 2015
13
"...It is a pity you did not claim Attendance Allowance before because I think your dad would have been entitled to this, but this benefit stops when a person goes into a care home..."

As OP's dad is currently self funding AA can be paid, it would cease after 28 days if CHC was obtained.
Thanks Nitram - that's interesting.
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
20,297
North Manchester
I'd start the application straight away without waiting for any other assessment.

I'm fairly sure that he would get the higher rate of £81.30/Wk, the lower rate is £54.45/Wk. It is neither means tested nor taxable.

You should get help from AgeUk, CAB or similar as how the form is filled in is very important, certain words nd phrases have specific meanings.

You can download the application form >>>HERE<<<
 

Sally66

Registered User
Jan 17, 2015
13
I'd start the application straight away without waiting for any other assessment.

I'm fairly sure that he would get the higher rate of £81.30/Wk, the lower rate is £54.45/Wk. It is neither means tested nor taxable.

You should get help from AgeUk, CAB or similar as how the form is filled in is very important, certain words nd phrases have specific meanings.


Thanks for that Nitram. I intend to call in at my local CAB office tomorrow - I know it has a very good reputation. I downloaded the application form and my heart sank; I wouldn't know how to answer some of the questions and there are so many of them!
 

nitram

Registered User
Apr 6, 2011
20,297
North Manchester
The form is not too bad, CAB will sort it out for you, a common mistake is to think that because you gave some information in one section there is no need to repeat it in another, you must repeat it as sections are individually scored. Things like changing a time to do something from a quarter of an hour to 20 minutes can make all the difference, CAB will help you with what to put.

It may be worth your while phoning CAB to see if they have any 'experts' and making an appointment
 

Sally66

Registered User
Jan 17, 2015
13
Update

I have tried to post an update but can't find it anywhere so apologies if this is appearing in the wrong place.

I just wanted to say thank you to those of you who were kind enough to reply to my post. The meeting went well and dad was granted full nursing funding. Everyone, including the Social Worker and the CPN, was supportive and very kind to me. Dad was due to move to nursing section next week. Unfortunately, he took an unexpected turn for the worse and died just hours after the meeting. I am heartbroken but he is out of pain and not suffering now. I hope and pray that one day it will be possible to cure or halt the progression of this cruel disease.
 

LYN T

Registered User
Aug 30, 2012
6,960
Brixham Devon
I have tried to post an update but can't find it anywhere so apologies if this is appearing in the wrong place.

I just wanted to say thank you to those of you who were kind enough to reply to my post. The meeting went well and dad was granted full nursing funding. Everyone, including the Social Worker and the CPN, was supportive and very kind to me. Dad was due to move to nursing section next week. Unfortunately, he took an unexpected turn for the worse and died just hours after the meeting. I am heartbroken but he is out of pain and not suffering now. I hope and pray that one day it will be possible to cure or halt the progression of this cruel disease.
I'm so sorry to read about your Dad's passing. You loved and supported him so well.

Please accept my condolences

Love

Lyn T