Care company pulling care out

RosettaT

Registered User
Sep 9, 2018
866
0
Mid Lincs
If you have POA and your mum and dad are self funding, I would find your own care company and cleaner. A cleaner will be more likely to do a 'proper job' as they will have a routine when cleaning a room. Would it be acceptable to have less visits for a longer time? By the time they take their coat off, get the duster and vacuum out 5 mins will be gone, the same when they leave, so in reality they only have 20mins to clean. How about a cleaner 3 x a week for an hour, or twice a week for 1.5hrs?

I know care companies are all short staffed and it may be difficult to find one in the short term, and they may be more expensive, OH pays £28.75 ph in the Midlands area (or will do from the end of Feb) £18 is very inexpensive. If you supply a private cleaner (£12 -15ph?) it will save a little and if you have to take over the caring role at least you can concentrate on that.
 

notsogooddtr

Registered User
Jul 2, 2011
1,286
0
When my parents were at home they had a carer but also employed a cleaner. Two different jobs. The cleaner did three hours a week. The house was spotless when she left but it didn't stay that way for long I'm afraid. And don't get me started on hearing aids! I have put my Dad's in, gone to get a drink, by the time I've got back one or both have been removed.
 

HelpInOut

Registered User
Oct 19, 2021
64
0
Firstly you expect 30 minutes for a CARER to clean a 2 bed flat. My sister is a CLEANER in a care home, she has a maximum of 30 minutes to do EACH ROOM, that includes moving between rooms/floors (eg if she works 8 hours, she must have cleaned 16 rooms and they are in the same building, imagine being hired to do 16 FLATS/HOUSES in different LOCATIONS). So, as @Jessbow says your expectations are way off.

secondly, when your parents first had visits they needed carers, now it seems they just need cleaners. A carer isn’t a cleaner. Hire cleaners.

Thirdly whether their contract is with you/your parents/the council or Santa, it makes no difference. They are a company and if a company has no income it goes bust, so any and ALL companies will cut ties with people who don’t pay their bill for 6 months. Frankly I’m surprised they didn’t stop sooner, maybe they were being kind, not leaving you without anyone over Christmas? Maybe you should appreciate that?
Where did I say I expected them to clean a 2 bed BUNGALOW in 30 minutes? All I expect is that they clean the bathroom at least once a week,whether that be 15 mins one day to clean sanitary fixtures and 15 minutes another to mop the floor.
Surely after they've showered Dad they should be wiping/ rinsing out the shower tray anyway?

I don't expect to visit and find that the tile floor round the toilet and the toilet bowl stink of urine and the underside of the raised loo seat (which you can move out and tip upside down to clean ) is dark brown with old urine and stinking . The rubber feet on the loo seat were thick with what looked like faeces . There's a greasy tide mark round kitchen sink and the compact dish drainer is thick in the bottom with smelly yuk.
You say your sister gets an hour to clean one room , so you'd agree that in 3 and a half hours they should be able to manage the majority of tasks listed. Not expecting them to mop wood floors in kitchen , hall and living room, clean windowsills or dust.
*****Plus, please note that in the billing period in question for approx 50% of the visits they were checked on for less than 15 minutes. For many the actual visit length was less than 5 minutes .
Would you pay £9 for a less than 5 minute visit where they've documented " nothing to be done " ?
 

HelpInOut

Registered User
Oct 19, 2021
64
0
If you have POA and your mum and dad are self funding, I would find your own care company and cleaner. A cleaner will be more likely to do a 'proper job' as they will have a routine when cleaning a room. Would it be acceptable to have less visits for a longer time? By the time they take their coat off, get the duster and vacuum out 5 mins will be gone, the same when they leave, so in reality they only have 20mins to clean. How about a cleaner 3 x a week for an hour, or twice a week for 1.5hrs?

I know care companies are all short staffed and it may be difficult to find one in the short term, and they may be more expensive, OH pays £28.75 ph in the Midlands area (or will do from the end of Feb) £18 is very inexpensive. If you supply a private cleaner (£12 -15ph?) it will save a little and if you have to take over the caring role at least you can concentrate on that.
The carers who clean first provide personal care for Dad every morning. Then they move to Mam's 30 minutes of cleaning.
The main reason we went with them for domestic duties is because they were already coming in for Dad , so mam knew them.
It took us months and a load of headaches to get mam to agree to increased care for dad ,because she hates having people doing things in the house.
Plus, is a regular cleaner going to be able to cope with Mam probably trying to get involved with everything initially? The adverts I see these days are mostly from younger/ glam people who talk about using cleaning fluids that smell of Pina colada or some other cocktail. I agree it would be better value as as far as I'm aware the going rate for a cleaner up here is about £10 an hour.
Was quite prepared to pay for the service , but no intention of paying for 30 minutes when they've been there for less than 15 minutes.
 

HelpInOut

Registered User
Oct 19, 2021
64
0
When my parents were at home they had a carer but also employed a cleaner. Two different jobs. The cleaner did three hours a week. The house was spotless when she left but it didn't stay that way for long I'm afraid. And don't get me started on hearing aids! I have put my Dad's in, gone to get a drink, by the time I've got back one or both have been removed.
 

HelpInOut

Registered User
Oct 19, 2021
64
0
When my parents were at home they had a carer but also employed a cleaner. Two different jobs. The cleaner did three hours a week. The house was spotless when she left but it didn't stay that way for long I'm afraid. And don't get me started on hearing aids! I have put my Dad's in, gone to get a drink, by the time I've got back one or both have been removed.
Dad doesn't take his hearing aids out. The issue was that they weren't being put in in the first place. I've explained in my other post why we had the care company for domestic duties.
So , in 3.5 hours of rostered visits you'd think we could at least expect to have a clean( ISH ) bathroom then?
 

HelpInOut

Registered User
Oct 19, 2021
64
0
You say that your Mum has memory problems, however I’m not sure if you have a diagnosis of dementia for her.
Looking after one person with dementia is tough but looking after two is more than twice as tough.
You are right, there are not a lot of care agencies out there. Have you thought about day care?
An advantage is that staff get to know their attendees.
And if your Mum doesn’t have a diagnosis then it may be helpful to get one?
Take care.
No mam doesn't have a diagnosis as she refused to have the memory assessments repeated in the Summer. GP is visiting tomorrow . I think she might be reluctant because she knows that they'll tell her to stop driving, but on the other hand I don't think she's got much insight into how bad her memory is and seems to have no empathy re dad's dementia and clueless about communicating with him.
I don't think we have any daycare in the area, and it's not something that's ever been mentioned by SS, GP, Care agency , Social prescribing link worker or elderly psychiatry ( although dad was immediately discharged from their care once they'd diagnosed him)
Something like that would be good for dad as he was a very sociable bloke and he likes an audience, lol. TBH, he's very placid now and just sits in his chair , does what's asked when carers come and eats his meals . Engages in a simple chat some days.
Mam's a different story and I get the brunt of it.
 

Jaded'n'faded

Registered User
Jan 23, 2019
5,287
0
High Peak
I'm not surprised you're fed up. A contract is, as you say, a two-way thing. Yes, you have expectations but they don't seem unreasonable to me and presumablyall the tasks have been agreed with the agency so should definitely be completed.

I know carers are really pushed for time (and poorly paid!) to get through all their visits, but that is not your fault or your problem! You're paying for a service you're not getting - simple as that. And the agency have been really cagey in letting you know the full details which sounds as though they knew how things were and that you would take them to task. It's really not OK to say to you, 'Are you going to make trouble in the future?' which is effectively what she did say!

I know you don't want to get a new agency because your parents would prefer continuity, but you can't continue with this agency because there is no trust and you are dissatisfied. I do think as others have said, it would be worth employing a cleaner to do the cleaning tasks. I hope you're able to find a better agency (or maybe a private carer) for the caring duties - please don't take it all on yourself.
 

Rosettastone57

Registered User
Oct 27, 2016
1,852
0
My mother in law was self funding and had a private care company for 3 half hour visits a day . I think the £18 an hour you are paying is very cheap, my mother in law was paying that for half an hour in 2018 . The care plan included preparing meals and some light housework. She also had hearing aids and like your experience, there often seemed to be a problem with carers putting them in . We provided full instructions for the carers , but I was never sure whether my mother in law just used to later take them out .

In the contract with the care company, if a person sent the carers away for any reason, the bill was still required to be paid . As this was on direct debit, it became more difficult to refuse payment . The light housework was simply washing up, emptying bins changing sheets . My experience was that I had to be specific in the care plan as to exactly what was required on each day ,eg Friday pm, put in laundry in machine, Mon pm tidy kitchen, otherwise if too vague, the carers would ask my mother in law, "hi Anne, is there anything you want me to do? " my mother in law would say no and of course nothing would be done . She often sent them away early too, which the carers recorded in the app.

Personally, I think a cleaner would be a better choice for your situation
 

HelpInOut

Registered User
Oct 19, 2021
64
0
Just to clarify that the agency are pulling care for both Mam's domestic 30 mins per day AND dad's 3 visits per day personal care.
2 separate contracts.
Mam's privately arranged and paid direct to care agency. Dads paid by direct debit to local authority.
 

HelpInOut

Registered User
Oct 19, 2021
64
0
I'm not surprised you're fed up. A contract is, as you say, a two-way thing. Yes, you have expectations but they don't seem unreasonable to me and presumablyall the tasks have been agreed with the agency so should definitely be completed.

I know carers are really pushed for time (and poorly paid!) to get through all their visits, but that is not your fault or your problem! You're paying for a service you're not getting - simple as that. And the agency have been really cagey in letting you know the full details which sounds as though they knew how things were and that you would take them to task. It's really not OK to say to you, 'Are you going to make trouble in the future?' which is effectively what she did say!

I know you don't want to get a new agency because your parents would prefer continuity, but you can't continue with this agency because there is no trust and you are dissatisfied. I do think as others have said, it would be worth employing a cleaner to do the cleaning tasks. I hope you're able to find a better agency (or maybe a private carer) for the caring duties - please don't take it all on yourself.
Thank you for your understanding. Must fly now and try and get the half height carers shower screens and shower curtain fitted so that dad can get a shower again. Not had one by( or his hair washed) since before Christmas.
 

HelpInOut

Registered User
Oct 19, 2021
64
0
i was told a while back that social services dont do domestics now. from what i understand of your post, your dad needs carers and your mum needs a cleaner? where i am, they dont make allowances for travelling time and so pinch a few minutes from one person and a few minutes from the next person for travel times. its asking a lot in 30 minutes to care for your dad and then do some cleaning. would it be better to hire a cleaner and let the carer be the carer? then you could keep up with what each person is doing in terms of their job and whether they are doing it right?
The total time they're supposed to be at the house AM is 1 HR 15 mins or 1 HR 30. That's 7 days a week. Mam and dad's allocated time slots are completely separate. For example, Dad has 45 mins or 1 HR in the morning depending on whether it's one of his 3 showering days or not . Following on from that , Mam has the 30 mins of domestic services. Mam's domestic services is privately arranged via the care agency.
 

Starting on a journey

Registered User
Jul 9, 2019
1,168
0
@HelpInOut oh what a pickle!! Maybe treat it as two issues and get a carer for dad and a cleaning person twice a week. My cleaning person helps several elderly people who have their care needs from carers whilst she goes in once a week to give their homes a good clean. If you build in some time so that she can have a chat with your mum then maybe it will work. I know how mad you feel, even at the low rate that you pay, it’s their money and it’s an awful lot of money!!
 

HelpInOut

Registered User
Oct 19, 2021
64
0
@HelpInOut oh what a pickle!! Maybe treat it as two issues and get a carer for dad and a cleaning person twice a week. My cleaning person helps several elderly people who have their care needs from carers whilst she goes in once a week to give their homes a good clean. If you build in some time so that she can have a chat with your mum then maybe it will work. I know how mad you feel, even at the low rate that you pay, it’s their money and it’s an awful lot of money!!
Yes, but as I said, we chose to have Dad's carers providing the service because she knew them and it was handy to have as a follow-on in the morning to ( (as we thought ) wash breakfast dishes and then vacuum or give the kitchen or bathroom a clean . Their bungalow's very small. Anyway , wasn't to be.

I'm just concerned that it looks like we won't be able to get anyone to take over Dad's care, and the SW doesn't seem concerned. We've told her we won't be able to/ don't want to do it.

As for the cost, that's a pretty normal charge up here in the North east for the ones that the local authority contract. I'm aware that other agencies charge about £27. I guess that , just like house prices, the charges vary depending on where you are.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Violet Jane

Registered User
Aug 23, 2021
2,034
0
Do those large national agencies not operate in your area?
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Starting on a journey

Registered User
Jul 9, 2019
1,168
0
Will the local authority continue to contract? If you are self funding they may simply tell you to get on with it , meaning higher charges but perhaps more control over what is done? I wish you and your husband strength for the next few days to sort this out and hoping that you have an outcome that suits you all.
 

Scarlet Lady

Registered User
Apr 6, 2021
582
0
I appreciate that this is a complicated caring situation, but it seems to me that it’s also a matter of managing expectations. Care agencies fulfil a role and certain needs, but they will never take the place of family or a dedicated private carer who will get to know the person or persons for whom they’re caring. With the best will in the world, agencies have a massively high turnover of staff so it’s hard to get consistency. In the current climate, many are struggling to operate at all with sickness and resignations.
In over three years of using an agency for my aunt, I learned many things, the main one being ‘don’t sweat the small stuff’, in other words, does this actually matter? Secondly, some carers are much better than others so you need to accept that. Thirdly, care notes are of limited use. Many haven’t got much of a clue how to use them and they usually don’t have time to read what’s gone before. Logging in and out issues are very common and actually don’t give the true picture. Phrases like ‘nothing more needed’ and ‘all well on leaving’ can be translated as the person needing care has refused what has been offered and simply wants the carer to leave. There is nothing the carer can do here, but accept that situation.
Most important thing? Never imagine that 30 minutes will be sufficient to accomplish ANYTHING, let alone EVERYTHING. As care needs exacerbate, a minimum of an hour is probably the least you need to allow for. And as others have said, maybe you have two separate needs here, cleaning and caring, that may not be reasonably covered by one provider.
I understand your frustration @HelpInOut . It’s annoying that you are paying for a service you feel you aren’t getting. But if you do decide to contact another agency, please discuss the care plan very carefully and in great detail and be aware that the reality is that most agencies, however good they are, cannot actually live up to everything they promise. And they cannot always deal with clients who are very resistant to being helped. Sometimes, ‘good enough’ is as good as it gets.
Hope you get something sorted out in the near future.
 

HelpInOut

Registered User
Oct 19, 2021
64
0
Do those large national agencies not operate in your area?
I only know the national ones that I've seen up here. It may be that some of them don't operate in our area.
We have high levels of social deprivation in the NE in general ( it's a huge ex coal and iron mining area, plus in the past industry such as shipbuilding and steel production) , so maybe there's not as much choice as in other areas as most people are funded by the council and they'll only contract the £ 18 per hour agencies .
I think we probably also have higher levels of COVID infections ATM than some.

I've tried to contact another 2 national ones that are in parents area via some platform that has them all on ,and they haven't got back even though I apparently had a "booked " phone call date and time. Tried to ring them but no answer and no option to leave a message.
 

HelpInOut

Registered User
Oct 19, 2021
64
0
I appreciate that this is a complicated caring situation, but it seems to me that it’s also a matter of managing expectations. Care agencies fulfil a role and certain needs, but they will never take the place of family or a dedicated private carer who will get to know the person or persons for whom they’re caring. With the best will in the world, agencies have a massively high turnover of staff so it’s hard to get consistency. In the current climate, many are struggling to operate at all with sickness and resignations.
In over three years of using an agency for my aunt, I learned many things, the main one being ‘don’t sweat the small stuff’, in other words, does this actually matter? Secondly, some carers are much better than others so you need to accept that. Thirdly, care notes are of limited use. Many haven’t got much of a clue how to use them and they usually don’t have time to read what’s gone before. Logging in and out issues are very common and actually don’t give the true picture. Phrases like ‘nothing more needed’ and ‘all well on leaving’ can be translated as the person needing care has refused what has been offered and simply wants the carer to leave. There is nothing the carer can do here, but accept that situation.
Most important thing? Never imagine that 30 minutes will be sufficient to accomplish ANYTHING, let alone EVERYTHING. As care needs exacerbate, a minimum of an hour is probably the least you need to allow for. And as others have said, maybe you have two separate needs here, cleaning and caring, that may not be reasonably covered by one provider.
I understand your frustration @HelpInOut . It’s annoying that you are paying for a service you feel you aren’t getting. But if you do decide to contact another agency, please discuss the care plan very carefully and in great detail and be aware that the reality is that most agencies, however good they are, cannot actually live up to everything they promise. And they cannot always deal with clients who are very resistant to being helped. Sometimes, ‘good enough’ is as good as it gets.
Hope you get something sorted out in the near future.
Thanks for the reply.
Yes, I do have high expectations regarding personal care for my Dad . Or do I? Is expecting that they will at least give him a swift once over of his" bits and pieces " and take him into the bathroom to at least wash his hands at the PM visit an example of a "high expectation", especially when he's diabetic and has an ongoing candida infection in his groins and under his apron?

Maybe this is one of the issues around what the powers that be deem as " social need" , when in actual fact its "nursing need" ? Carers aren't regulated in any shape or form .They have no accountability. There are no minimum training requirements . Yet they go into the homes of some of the most vulnerable in our society and administer care

I really don't understand what you mean by saying that nothing can be achieved in 30 minutes or suggest that I'm expecting " everything " to be done?
***Maybe you can clarify what you mean by "everything " regarding the 30 mins of domestic care? ***
Neither do I accept that it's OK for an agency not to have accurate record keeping.

Apart from anything else , they leave themselves wide open to legal action and I suspect thats why they took the first opportunity to throw in the towel (or , as the Social worker accused my husband and I of on Friday) " wash their hands of " Mum and Dad

They have a duty of care and, as businesses, are expected to be transparent in their billing of clients .

This "overbilling" for Mums domestic help has gone on since August
What are the "managers", directors and the "Quality and compliance " officer actually doing?

Do you not agree that if someone refuses for any domestic tasks to be done for 3 months then the carers should be reporting this back to managers?

We run a small gardening and handyperson service particularly aimed at vulnerable people. 70% of our clients are over 70 years old .
If we'd agreed to mow and edge a lawn every 2 weeks but we were only edging every 2 weeks and mowing once a month and continued to bill for the amount agreed for 2 weekly mowing and edging
then I would expect someone to be querying why their lawn was far too long and asking for evidence that we were mowing every 2 weeks.
Its fraud to take money for something you or your staff haven't done, and when its relating to vulnerable people , it's even more serious .


Perhaps the bigger issue is that the local authority never audit records of the agencies they contract in and are happy to pay for services that aren't being delivered, often with a knock on affect on the NHS and social care costs ?

I'm getting quite frustrated that some members seem not to understand and appreciate WHY we went with having the carers to carry out 3O mins of domestic care a day, following on from Dad's AM visits.
If we employed a cleaner , then that could be 4 different people coming into the house 4 times a day on some days. At least this way it was only (potentially) 3 different people 3 times a day. Mum is far less likely to accept that .

You also mention ( as others have) about having a "private carer", and this is something I've strongly considered, but presumably you'd have to have 2 to cover for days off and holidays, plus I haven't been able to find anywhere that carers advertise privately.

I was a nurse for 27 yrs and don't accept poor care , whether it be " social " or nursing. We seem far too ready in this country to accept dumbed down services and customer care and furthermore to pay for it without question.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
138,844
Messages
2,000,415
Members
90,608
Latest member
jon56