Care company pulling care out

HelpInOut

Registered User
Oct 19, 2021
64
0
Its a long story, but top and bottom is that the care provider has suspended ( terminated) the private domestic services for my Mum, and now they've given the local authority 4 weeks notice that they won't be continuing with the 3 X daily personal care service for dad .

SW called ( I'd requested a reassessment of dad's needs and the "dynamics" of parents relationship anyway, but she was actually calling because the care provider had been on the phone to her) and made a big point of the fact that dad might end up without any care. She also ( I think ) wanted to hear our side of the story . The care provider says it due to a break down in the relationship due to non payment of bills , which isn't strictly true at all. When I queried the legalities of it she seemed to think that the care provider could do what they wanted?
Any thoughts please?
 

Cazcaz

Registered User
Apr 3, 2021
338
0
They are a company and, like any company, can refuse to serve anyone they wish at any time they wish, especially if there is any doubt about them getting paid correctly. My advice, find another care company.
 

Sarasa

Volunteer Host
Apr 13, 2018
7,279
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Nottinghamshire
I would look for another company, but is the problem over payment the only reason? My mother in law's company made it clear in the summer that they no longer wished to care for MiL because they felt her needs were now too great for three care visits a day and she needed to be in a care home. I think there was a meeting with social services who agreed with their conclusion. My mother in law is self-funding so no real need for social services to be involved but it confirmed what the company said, and my husband had long thought.
Is it getting to the time when your parents might need the sort of care a home would provide, and is that part of the conversation you need to be having next?
 

Violet Jane

Registered User
Aug 23, 2021
2,042
0
If bills are not paid then, like any other company, a care agency can withdraw its services / terminate its contact with the client. Who is responsible for paying the fees?
 

HelpInOut

Registered User
Oct 19, 2021
64
0
Who was supposed to be paying them?
My parents were/are. My husband and I have POA.

Dad's care package is arranged via the local authority as historically it was put in place when he was discharged from hospital 3 years ago following a hip fracture, although his needs have increased significantly since then and he was diagnosed with dementia last February. We pay the council by DD every month.

My mothers domestic care was a private arrangement with us and the care provider.
She had a 6 week funded care package after she was in hospital in July, but it was stopped early when the SW did a reassessment at 4 weeks and mum told her they weren't providing any personal care. That was in August.
One of the reasons she was given the care package at discharge was that she was struggling to stand for long enough to prepare food or a hot drink for her and dad, and carry them through to the living room, and she was also suffering from low BP and dizziness. They assessed that she needed help with showering (or rather I did , as she didn't have a bathing OT assessment, they just told me they were discharging her with a zimmer frame for walking)
After the 4 weeks discharge package was stopped in August, we decided to continue them for 30 minutes a day to do some cleaning etc, but they've been failing to consistently provide an acceptable level of care .

They sent an invoice for 10 weeks service by post to Mum at the end of October when we'd agreed that they would email it to me. I wasn't even sure that they were still providing the service , as the house wasn't very clean and mum was telling me they weren't cleaning and no bill was sent to me. They aren't very good at communicating,
Mum didn't give me the bill until Nov 5th a she also has memory problems.
When I saw that from August to September they'd billed for 3 days 30 minutes and 2 days 45 minutes shower, I sent an email and said this wasn't what was agreed in August, and that the reason the SW stopped the funded package early was because mum wasn't receiving any personal care, and that she hadn't been showered by the carers since then either.
I agreed that if they amended the bill for August to September to 30 minutes 7 days a week, I'd pay that, even though I wasn't sure that the carers were actually cleaning,
At that point I wasn't aware that I could have access to my parents social care records via an app', but someone else who uses the company told me about it , and I asked for access. They (the director) told me that they would have to seek permission from Mum to allow me to access her records. I explained that my husband and I have POA and needed the access to be able to reconcile the invoices with the care provided and the times the carers were in attendance. She said she would still have to visit and ask Mam's permission.

She must have looked at the carers records for the remainder of the billing period ie September to mid October , as she then sent me an email saying I was quite correct and that the carers had been writing "nothing required" in the visit notes and she cancelled that invoice for those 6 weeks.
At that point she asked me if I was going to continue to dispute the invoices , as if I was then she would have to suspend care until "we sorted it out", whatever that meant. I told her that I couldn't dispute charges that I hadn't yet been invoiced for, and surely we'd have to see how it went going forwards. She promised she would be monitoring Mam care on a daily basis, and added a list of suggested cleaning to the tasks on the visit schedule, eg vacuuming, washing up, emptying bins, cleaning the bathroom, making beds , helping with laundry and changing beds.

The next invoice for mid October to mid November arrived shortly after that, but obviously it covered a period that had already passed.
I wasn't prepared to pay it until I had access to the app to be able to reconcile the invoice with the times and tasks. By the beginning of December se hadn't ( as far as I was aware) been out to ask for Mam;s permission to give me access to her records, so I emailed and asked for the app access. I was told she was going out to visit Mam soon.
I actually got access to the app on December 14th, about 10 days before the invoice for mid November to mid December arrived.

Once I got access to the app, as well as trying to check with Mum what they were doing , I started checking daily what they were documenting in the notes . I could see the time that the departure note was written, but not what time they actually "checked in" , only the scheduled visit start time. I knew that the only things they said they were doing were vacuuming (about 4 times a week-its a tiny 2 bed , 1 reception bungalow) washing up, wiping kitchen benches down and emptying the bins ,but looking at the state of the wood floors and carpets that didn't seem likely. Cleaning of anything in the bathroom was mentioned less than once a week (bearing in mind that Dad's not very good with the loo, they have a raised loo seat , the carers all go in there with outdoor shoes on and dad and mam with bare feet, and we are still in the midst of COVID) Their side tables (they eat in the living room as no dining table) were covered in sticky marks and a week or so ago I went down and moved some bits of torn up tissue that had taken up residence on Dad's side table where his water jug, inhalers and eye ointments live and they were on top of a small bowl of fruit fly infested rotten grapes !
So hopefully you get the picture that there wasn't 3.5 hrs a week of cleaning happening.

I asked the director if she could run a query and provide me with the check in times for the visits from mid October to mid December along with the carers notes. Alternatively I said we would pay 60%, or 20 minutes per day, of the invoices, as having looked at what they were documenting doing and at the state of the house, I was pretty sure they weren't cleaning for 30 minutes per day.
She sent the report, and told me that she was suspending Mams care "until we could sort things out" (she likes that phrase)
The report shows lots of comments of "nothing required" or "washed up and emptied the bins" "vacuumed through" "tidied bathrrom Again, any bathroom cleaning is mentioned less than once a week.

More telling are the times which for approx 80% of the times show they were there for less than 25 minutes and approximately 50% of the visits were less than 15 minutes. Some of the dates were missing from the report so we aksed for those and said the report showed that sinceNovember, when she promised to monitor things, they'd continued to invoice Mum for services that hadn't been provided.
At this point she sent a perfectly pleasant and apologetic email saying they didn't feel they could continue to provide care for mam at all. and would have to think about whether they could provide care for dad either.
The next day she called in a bit of a strop and was quite unpleasant and unprofessional and told me she would be contacting social services and telling them they wouldn't be providing care for dad after the 4 weeks notice period and she'd be contacting the CQC and if I contacted them she hoped I wouldn't do it anonymously .

Then yesterday, despite me trying to to speak to a SW re the dynamic of the situation regarding mam and dad for over a week, a SW rang at 6pm because , of course , the care provider had been on the phone and told them they were stopping the service due to a break down in the relationship following non payment of bills.
She will also potentially be ticked off because I've recently raised concerns re the carers not completing the bedtime (6.30pm) hygiene tasks, especially as dad wears pull up pants , has had 2 episodes of thrush in his groins in the last 4 weeks, plus (because after he fell backwards on/off the perching stool in the bedroom when the carer was sitting him down, they decided the showering facilities weren't safe anymore) he only has strip washes until we can get the bathroom changed. Also lots of issues regarding them not putting his hearing aids in over the past months.

Sorry, that's a very long one, but I feel I have to justify everything as we've been made to feel like bad people who won't pay their bills!
I can't believe any "Care" provider would do this. It'll have a huge impact on my parents as Mam gets very anxious when new people come in as she feels they don' t know where anything is and she can't remember where things are because she doesn't really provide any personal care for Dad anymore. Because dad's had a few falls recently he lacks confidence so needs someone who knows him and is confident in providing his care. I suppose if the worst comes to the worst and the council can't find anyone then my husband and I will do it and then look for another agency privately.

I think they did well to get the money they did for August to September as I bet if I scrolled all the way back they were writing "nothing to do" every visit. She should have looked at the reports before she sent them and taken the 60%. I'd be furious if I was the director and that's what my staff had been doing. She did try to say that as per the contract, if we have a block of contracted time then we have to pay for it, but a contract's a 2 way thing surely and their part of the contract is to deliver what they say they will?

So here we are anyway.
 

HelpInOut

Registered User
Oct 19, 2021
64
0
I would look for another company, but is the problem over payment the only reason? My mother in law's company made it clear in the summer that they no longer wished to care for MiL because they felt her needs were now too great for three care visits a day and she needed to be in a care home. I think there was a meeting with social services who agreed with their conclusion. My mother in law is self-funding so no real need for social services to be involved but it confirmed what the company said, and my husband had long thought.
Is it getting to the time when your parents might need the sort of care a home would provide, and is that part of the conversation you need to be having next?
The company director and the managers are well aware of the situation with both my parents, although they've not been very supportive or helpful while we've been trying to find out what's been going on regarding aspects of care and my mother "interacting" with the carers when they're providing care for dad. If the carers could be persuaded to record things accurately that would be a huge help.
If they felt that Dad's care was too much then they should have had the professionalism to say that. I do wonder who these "directors" were in past lives.
They're also aware that I'd contacted S Services to ask for a reassessment of both of their needs , and asked the GP to refer back to the community OT for re assessment. Also contacted the GP re Mam and her memory/behaviour.
They were only providing domestic services for Mum. She's just about independent in personal care but struggles sometimes with her socks and brushing her hair. Fiercely independent but really struggling with her memory and planning for meals etc since just before Christmas. She's not been easy to handle for well over 2 years now.
 

HelpInOut

Registered User
Oct 19, 2021
64
0
They are a company and, like any company, can refuse to serve anyone they wish at any time they wish, especially if there is any doubt about them getting paid correctly. My advice, find another care company.
so the fact that our contract is with the council, and the care providers contract is with the council means nothing? Disgraceful.
Well yes, we will have to find another company, but there aren't exactly a lot of carers around ATM up here. Think it's something to do with that virus? If push comes to shove we'll do it ourselves. I refuse to spend my parents hard earned and saved cash paying £18 an hour for sub standard care. It's not rocket science, it just demands some care and common sense , or just do the tasks that are listed for the visit.
 

Bod

Registered User
Aug 30, 2013
1,974
0
We've found that Care company's schedule care appointments, without allowing for travel time between appointments.
Meaning they arrive late, and leave early, just to try to get to the next appointment vaguely on time.
Along with rota schedulers not having any good knowledge of their patch. It's a wonder how the system works at times.

Bod.
 

Violet Jane

Registered User
Aug 23, 2021
2,042
0
Regardless of any disputes over bills, if you are not happy with the standard of care provided and your parents are self-funders then why not find another care agency? Once you no longer trust an agency / carer it’s best to move.
 

HelpInOut

Registered User
Oct 19, 2021
64
0
Regardless of any disputes over bills, if you are not happy with the standard of care provided and your parents are self-funders then why not find another care agency? Once you no longer trust an agency / carer it’s best to move.
but is that the best for my parents? They've pulled the care anyway, so we have to find someone else, but SS are saying he might be left without care. I've contacted some providers who I know don't have contracts with the council.
I find it so concerning that this agency have been rated as outstanding by the CQC twice in a row.
How do you find good care?
 

HelpInOut

Registered User
Oct 19, 2021
64
0
We've found that Care company's schedule care appointments, without allowing for travel time between appointments.
Meaning they arrive late, and leave early, just to try to get to the next appointment vaguely on time.
Along with rota schedulers not having any good knowledge of their patch. It's a wonder how the system works at times.

Bod.
oh they're often late, but these are the times that they check in and then check out. You know if it was at least 25 minutes 4 or 5 days a week and the things were mostly done and the bathroom didn't smell of stale fishy urine it would be different. But 1 minute here, 5 minutes there ? "Nothing required" Would you expect your parents to pay for that?
 

HelpInOut

Registered User
Oct 19, 2021
64
0
Could your parents be telling the carers that nothing needs doing and sending them away?
potentially my mam could, regarding the domestic duties, yes. This has been one of the issues that I've been trying to get feedback about from them for the last 3 months when I started having suspicions that all wasn't well with Mam and that thee may be problems with her "blocking" Dad's care (which is a form of abuse). All I was initially told was that they only got feedback from the carers if something was wrong.
I even raised my concerns with SS after they wee both discharged from hospital on the same day in July and Mam had a melt down and said she couldn't live in the same house as Dad the way she was feleing and went into the back garden until we left. A SW spoke to Mam on the phone and she said they were coping OK and that was that

If this was the case then they should have been documenting it and reporting back to management so management could contact me and we could "sort it out" -lol .

It took me months to get to the bottom of what the heck was going on with dad's hearing aids.
We'd go down and he had one in, or none in, or both but couldn't hear and the batteries were flat. Then the carers were saying he was "vague". Wouldn't we all be if we had dementia and couldn't hear?
Eventually we discovered it was a combination of some of them not being able to put them in (they're the ones with the moulded bit that fills the ear), Mam saying leave them when they didn't know what they were doing and she would put them in (she can't , and gets herself in a right pickle with them), or that we would put them in. We were only visiting once or twice a week as we'd had to take a step back because of her attitude, especially towards me, but she obviously couldn't remember that. Alternatively she'd sometimes been telling people that they didn't work anyway so it didn't matter. Eventually I took the hearing aids " pot " into his bedroom out of the way of Mam, found some online instructions re how to put them in and clean them, sent the link to the agency and printed one out and stuck it up on his bedroom wall.
 

Jessbow

Registered User
Mar 1, 2013
5,734
0
Midlands
Excuse me if I am wrong, but it strikes me as your expecation of what is acheivable in 30 mins is quite high.

Maybe that is why the agency has thrown in the towel.

Maybe better to leave caring to carers and cleaning to a cleaner.

What re your typical expecations in a 30 min call?
 
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Cazcaz

Registered User
Apr 3, 2021
338
0
Firstly you expect 30 minutes for a CARER to clean a 2 bed flat. My sister is a CLEANER in a care home, she has a maximum of 30 minutes to do EACH ROOM, that includes moving between rooms/floors (eg if she works 8 hours, she must have cleaned 16 rooms and they are in the same building, imagine being hired to do 16 FLATS/HOUSES in different LOCATIONS). So, as @Jessbow says your expectations are way off.

secondly, when your parents first had visits they needed carers, now it seems they just need cleaners. A carer isn’t a cleaner. Hire cleaners.

Thirdly whether their contract is with you/your parents/the council or Santa, it makes no difference. They are a company and if a company has no income it goes bust, so any and ALL companies will cut ties with people who don’t pay their bill for 6 months. Frankly I’m surprised they didn’t stop sooner, maybe they were being kind, not leaving you without anyone over Christmas? Maybe you should appreciate that?
 

Grannie G

Volunteer Moderator
Apr 3, 2006
81,800
0
Kent
The problem here is there is no comparison between private agencies and the NHS.

The NHS provides service without charge according to need.

Agencies are businesses which have to make enough profit to pay wages and running costs.

I understand how difficult it will be for you @HelpInOut. Ideally care would be provided according to need. There was a time when Social Services had Home Helps for this but that seems to have faded away without anyone realising.
 

jennifer1967

Registered User
Mar 15, 2020
23,594
0
Southampton
i was told a while back that social services dont do domestics now. from what i understand of your post, your dad needs carers and your mum needs a cleaner? where i am, they dont make allowances for travelling time and so pinch a few minutes from one person and a few minutes from the next person for travel times. its asking a lot in 30 minutes to care for your dad and then do some cleaning. would it be better to hire a cleaner and let the carer be the carer? then you could keep up with what each person is doing in terms of their job and whether they are doing it right?
 

Arthurgeorge

Registered User
Dec 16, 2020
84
0
You say that your Mum has memory problems, however I’m not sure if you have a diagnosis of dementia for her.
Looking after one person with dementia is tough but looking after two is more than twice as tough.
You are right, there are not a lot of care agencies out there. Have you thought about day care?
An advantage is that staff get to know their attendees.
And if your Mum doesn’t have a diagnosis then it may be helpful to get one?
Take care.