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Care Cap - BBBC Article and Questions....

Discussion in 'Legal and financial issues' started by Sherbert, Jan 28, 2015.

  1. Sherbert

    Sherbert Registered User

    Jan 28, 2015
    1
    Hi all

    I have just read an article on the BBC News website by Nick Triggle on the Care Cap.

    The article says that fees paid are only accumulated at the rate that the council pays eg. my mum pays £750 pw but the council pays £500 for the same home and therefore, only the £500 counts towards my mum cap of £72,000 - am I understanding this correctly? She could end up paying well over the cap before getting any funding?

    the article goes on to say "Ministers say that those paying for themselves can get the council to negotiate their price". Is this something that councils will do now? I've always thought it a bit unfair that those that can afford to pay (often due to owning their own home) have to pay full price whilst councils negotiate lower prices which are subsidised by the full paying residents.....

    Thanks for reading

    Vicky
     
  2. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    19,042
    Male
    North Manchester
    #2 nitram, Jan 28, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2015
    "...am I understanding this correctly?..."

    Yes.
    Also in some cases residents will be allowed to pay top ups out of their own funds.

    First party ‘top ups’
    39. The person whose needs are to be met by the accommodation may themselves choose
    to make a ‘top-up’ payment only in the following circumstances:
    • where they are subject to a 12-week property disregard (See chapter 8 on Charging);
    • where they have a deferred payment agreement in place with the local authority. Where
    this is the case, the terms of the agreement should reflect this arrangement. For further
    guidance on deferred payment agreements see Chapter 9; or
    • where they are receiving accommodation provided under S117 for mental health aftercare.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa.../file/366104/43380_23902777_Care_Act_Book.pdf
     
  3. jenniferpa

    jenniferpa Volunteer Moderator

    Jun 27, 2006
    39,439
    I'm not sure about that whole "Ministers say that those paying for themselves can get the council to negotiate their price" thing since that seems to contradict this bit

     
  4. marts1711

    marts1711 Registered User

    Oct 25, 2014
    44
    BBC News Report on care costs???

    I have now watched the BBC report on care costs and the new rules that come Into force in 2016.
    Hang on a minute... In the care act it says 'No one
    will pay more than £72,000 for their
    care in their life time'
    This apparently isn't the case. The £72,000 does not include the cost of accommodation and food. !!!!
    I did the BBC calculator with my dad's details and if he lives he will pay out £149,500 over the next 5 years!!!
    So basically they have given old people in care homes who are self funding with property, absolutely NOTHING!!!
    This act is a farce and a lie.
    You know, I had a little hope that maybe on first reading the new laws at the beginning of the month that we might be left with some money but now I know it's a all a cover up.
    Poor dad would be heart broken if he knew.
    I'm sick !!!



    Sent from my iPhone using Talking Point
     
  5. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    19,042
    Male
    North Manchester
    The 'Hotel costs' are also capped.
     
  6. AlsoConfused

    AlsoConfused Registered User

    Sep 17, 2010
    1,955
    Call me cynical ... I always thought the plan was intended just as a useful sound-bite to persuade the voters this government had a plan to help ordinary people. As far as I can see, the only people it might help are those with huge and expensive houses.
     
  7. Isabella

    Isabella Registered User

    Jan 4, 2014
    106
    The other problem is they have to be assessed by the council as needing to be in a care home. Good luck with that! My mother's SS said that wandering was a sign of her independence. Even though I, the police, A&E, emergency out of hours social worker, Red Cross safeguarding officer all said she wasn't safe to live at home, SS "knew better". To save themselves money they'll just not assess people as needing care, then they won't have to contribute. Sorry to be cynical. The whole system is terrifying. I genuinely fear getting old these days!
     
  8. susy

    susy Registered User

    Jul 29, 2013
    806
    North East
    You will read about all the new nurses to be trained..... These are not extra, these are just the normal numbers. It's all about who can say the "best" things to win votes.

    Bunch of liars the lot of them.
     
  9. Pottingshed50

    Pottingshed50 Registered User

    Apr 8, 2012
    514
    Concerns as Well

    The OP has my complete sympathy. Mum is 95 and this will be her 4th year in residential care. At almost bar a few pence £3,000 per month out of her savings her money is diminishing. Thankfully Dad died not knowing that all of his hard earned savings was being paid out each month just to keep our Mum in the same accommodation that 99% of the others are getting for free. Where is the justice. We have had to sell Mum's home as the saving would never had lasted.

    I wish the Law on all of this was much clearer. When do I have to apply for funding , when the savings get to £...... I really dont know it is all made so unclear.

    I also wonder about myself and my husband. In the scenario that he had to go into care at some point , would all of his pensions go to pay for his care. In which case it would leave me with just my old age pension as I dont get any extra pension at all. We dont have savings. May be someone on here would know. As I say it is a minefield , nobody is straight.

    Finally what really grieves me and I dont care who it upsets, but how come there is always millions to be found for a variety of other issues at the click of a switch but our old folk who are the backbone of this country are very much down the pecking order when it comes to help.

    Rant over..
     
  10. Saffie

    Saffie Registered User

    Mar 26, 2011
    22,497
    Female
    Near Southampton
    Hello there, the rules regarding thresholds etc. are really quite clear. The factsheet linked below may help.However, the interpretation of grey areas is varied among the LAs.

    http://www.alzheimers.org.uk/site/scripts/documents_info.php?documentID=2710

    The best time to apply for funding is when the savings of the person who is a resident in the home ( any savings of a wife/husband is not relevant) approaches the upper threshold of £23,250. It's best not to leave it until is is actually on the threshold as it takes time to get the financial assessments carried out.

    In the scenario you mention, only your husband's capital will be assessed and yes, all his pensions will go towards his fees with the Local Authority picking up the remainder. However, you can opt for half his private/occupational pension to be paid to you and this is what happens in most cases I believe though some will be better off foregoing this and applying for Pension credit.
    That is means-tested though so not a particularly good move if you have savings of your own.
    Of course, your house will be disregarded too unless you decide to sell in which case half the value will belong to your husband which could very well revert him to be self-funded.

    I hope that helps but I also hope the scenario never becomes a reality. xxx
     
  11. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    19,042
    Male
    North Manchester
    The previous link relates to the current situation, the OP was talking about the situation after April when the part of the Care Act relating to finances comes into force.

    From April 2016 as well as the caps on care (lifetime £72K) and hotel (annual £12K) costs for residential care only proposed new capital limits will apply, the proposed limits are:-

    The upper capital limit for residential care where the value of someone’s home is included will rise from £23,250 to £118,000.

    The upper capital limit for residential care where the value of someone’s home is not included will rise from £23,250 to £27,000.

    The upper capital limit for community care will rise from £23,250 to £27,000.

    The lower capital limit for both residential care and community care will rise from £14,250 to £17,000.
     
  12. chrissie121

    chrissie121 Registered User

    Nov 27, 2013
    29
    HI there, I feel for you having been down this route. Does your mother have carers in? get the carers to record in your Mum's care plan how she is and their concerns that she needs full time care. Get the police/ambulance/anyone else do write a report/note that she is a vulnerable adult and should not live alone. Then keep detailed notes of every episode, wander and literally make a note of every detail and constantly pick up the phone to the social services. If you feel you are banging your head against a brick wall speaking to your appointed social worker ask to speak to another, the manager. Also make contact with the commissioning team at your local authority. Get some details and contact. Advise them you want to start the ball rolling as your mother needs full time care. the commissioning team work with SS regarding care homes and will send out a social worker to assess. Speak to your mother's GP and advise your concerns, ask him to assess your mum and agree she needs care. When the social worker comes out to assess your mum the first thing they will do is to get a report from her GP. Has your mum been diagnosed with dementia or other? Key thing here, keep being a nuisance, record every episode. Call Social services and tell them its an emergency situation. Good luck.
     
  13. Saffie

    Saffie Registered User

    Mar 26, 2011
    22,497
    Female
    Near Southampton
    My apologies. I was responding to what I thought was a general query from Potttingshed rather than the OP.
    Obviously not helpful but, it would make your response irrelevant if I delete Nitram, so I'll just creep back to my corner.:eek:
     
  14. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    19,042
    Male
    North Manchester
    No problem Saffie, maybe the AS should have a warning that things are about to change.

    Pottingshed 50 was talking about a future scenario when her husband might have to go into care and her mother who is in care and appears to be self funding.

    As her mother's house has been sold the increase of upper limit from £23250 to a proposed £27000 will apply from April 2016.
     
  15. Pottingshed50

    Pottingshed50 Registered User

    Apr 8, 2012
    514
    Thank you Saffie you have really helped. Like you I hope it never happens.

    You help is really appreciated
     
  16. Beate

    Beate Registered User

    May 21, 2014
    11,719
    Female
    London
    That's a real good summary. I hadn't realised until recently that the cap only goes up a few thousand unless a house is involved and assumed the £118,000 cap would be for everyone - that would have been nice.
     
  17. marts1711

    marts1711 Registered User

    Oct 25, 2014
    44
    Hi all. I am the OP

    I'm still bloody confused lol
    I'll try to clarify. Dad is in EMI nursing home, currently still within the 12 week disregard of his property. He has FNC in place.
    Nursing home have sent a contract to sign (which we haven't as yet) stating costs as £479 a week.
    After the 12 weeks are up he will be self funding with a deferred payment scheme in place until and if we sell the house. The house is worth considerably more than £118k.
    Does it actually mean that just his nursing costs are tallied until they reach £72k and the cost of accommodation etc is added up separately ????

    I consider myself quite intelligent but you'd have to be Einstein to understand all this. HELP PLS

    Confused


    Sent from my iPhone using Talking Point
     
  18. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    19,042
    Male
    North Manchester
    "Hi all. I am the OP"
    I'm still bloody confused lol"


    Two similar threads have been merged so future references to OP can only lead to confusion.

    "Does it actually mean that just his nursing costs are tallied until they reach £72k and the cost of accommodation etc is added up separately ????"

    Not until the Act is fully implemented in April 2016.
    Any expenditure before that date is disregarded.

    From April 2016 care and hotel costs are separated, there is a lifetime cap of £72k on care costs and an annual cap of £12k on hotel costs.

    All expenditure will be calculated using the LA tariffs and not the amount actually charged by the care home.

    Any clearer?
     
  19. marts1711

    marts1711 Registered User

    Oct 25, 2014
    44
    As dad is getting FNC does that pay for all his care costs then??


    Sent from my iPhone using Talking Point
     
  20. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    19,042
    Male
    North Manchester
    #20 nitram, Jan 30, 2015
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2015
    "As dad is getting FNC does that pay for all his care costs then??"

    No.

    FNC is paid directly to the care home, it is an NHS contribution to the cost to the home of employing nurses. It is usually taken in account in the calculation of the fee charged to the person being cared for.
     

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