Cant sell moms house to pay for care

Discussion in 'Legal and financial issues' started by sjcares, Aug 7, 2015.

  1. sjcares

    sjcares Registered User

    Oct 1, 2012
    Hi, Everyone,

    My mom and dad brought a local authority house, which is a ''wimpy no fines'' concrete construction dated 1949, It's not on a defect list, like so many others that are concrete, built in the 50's,they brought from the right to buy scheme in 1981, and wasn't given a building cert from LA. My dad passed away in 1985, and my moms mortgage was paid in full by an endowment life insurance. She lived in it until Oct 2014, lots of people have brought these houses and have extended them, building garages with bedrooms on top etc. so why banks are refusing mortgages bets me:mad: Mom now resides in a lovely care home,as she has dementia and lost capacity. I'm her only daughter and became her deputy for financial affairs in early March of this year, Applying to the court of protection took 8 months to complete and a deferred payment was paid to LA, for her care.

    I have since repaid them, when deputyship granted, but from March 2015, the LA calculated that if she was paying the full self funding amount, her savings would be below 23grand, so are continuing to pay a deferred payment with my mother paying her monthly contribution, until her house is sold.

    I have come to sell her home, and have been told by four EA that banks are not giving mortgages on these types of houses, which are not defected and are sound in building structure.(all tarred with same brush) I have been advised by a conveyance solicitor and EA to wait for a cash buyer. which may take years, I learnt later on that the said housing stock in my area can be brought back by the housing association who brought the stock from LA in early 00's.

    Solicitor or EA hasn't mentioned this, I'm worried what to do, as the house as only been on the market for 5 weeks with viewers dropping out, due to the house being hard to re-sell at a later date and not being able to get a mortgages on them.

    As I'm my mom's deputy and daughter, I worried that her assets will be a pittance no matter what I'm advised to do to pay for her care, I understand that LA count only 90% for care funds, from the sale of a property after sale fees are taken out, that will soon go, if I'm offered a low amount by waiting or taking HA offer, my mom wont be self funding for very long. As anyone been in the same boat?

    It's bad enough waiting months for the deputyship to come through and grieving over my mom having dementia and going into a home, although she is happy and the home is lovely, without having to deal with this too. I've reduced the house price but don't want to go much lower, As mom deputy I have to work for my moms best interests, any advice would greatly appreciated SJcares
  2. Katrine

    Katrine Registered User

    Jan 20, 2011
    My mum lives in a house built only 13 years ago that I found is deemed to be of non-standard construction by most insurance companies. :( Fortunately LV is willing to insure it and has been brilliant when I needed to make claims. I also wonder what the mortgage situation would be, e.g. if we needed to do equity release (she still lives there, with carers). Her house is of a type that most new builds are in Highland Scotland, so I guess if they build new ones like that it must be OK. Concrete raft on top of foundations, then timber frame, clad with prefabricated concrete harling (pebble dash) panels bolted to the frame, and concrete roof tiles.

    Not helpful to you, I realise, as you mum's house is older and presumably could have the fabric decay issues of concrete and steel. Could you get a structural survey to prove that it doesn't?

    The HA, if they will definitely buy it, sounds the easiest route. Another possibility is sale at auction. Talk to local estate agents and auctioneers for advice on its likely sale price at auction. People interested in buy to let are often cash buyers. Auction properties can have a reserve price so you can set a limit below which you won't sell. Then if there is interest on the day, the auctioneer asks the person closest to the reserve to come and have a talk. Sales are often made when the bidder hears the reserve price and decides to offer that amount.
  3. sjcares

    sjcares Registered User

    Oct 1, 2012
    Hi Katherine,
    Thanks for your reply and your advice, sorry to here about your mom and the plight you are having with your mom property. I spoke to my sols, she said, wouldn't advise auction as wouldn't get a guide price to stick, so at best been advised to do this as very last resort, It's maddening, but surely law states that the LA should of given purchasers as a right to buy a building cert to say they are safe.?

    I've got to hold out for cash buyer or see HA Monday next to get some advice, EA and sols didn't tell me this info, No they want their money :mad: I rang HA myself, If I can get a ball park figure from them ,at least I could hold out a little longer, for a better price than this for mom, as with EA, contract states, that if after 12 weeks no sale no fee applies.?

    Moms house is a wimpy no fines, It was built in sit-u, concrete made with no sand and lots of chipping were poured into steel frames which made 10'' thick walls, The outer walls were then rendered, inside was brick blocks then plastered. They are very strong and this method of building was used to make flats of at least 4 floors high, still in used to day. Does the HA still let tenants buy these properties, would love to find out???

    There is a defects list if you Google it will try and send web address for what I found, wimpy (no fines, the way it was built with no fine aggregates )isn't the defected ones on any list, But some banks wont give mortgages on them or concrete house now so people who have brought them and extended them will loose out, This is putting viewers off. So I will see what HA say, hold tight a little longer, then rethink whether to go down that route with HA and except their offer. if I have no luck with an offer through AE. A worrying time for us both. Just hope there is light at the end of the tunnel. EA said, its finding a buyer who's bank will lend to them on these houses it can be done :mad::mad::(
  4. sjcares

    sjcares Registered User

    Oct 1, 2012
    Hi Katherine,

    Forgot to mention, sol said not allowed to get a structural engineer report to say it's fit for sale and mortgage, have you heard anything so stupid, in your life.? as would cost a lot of money, not in moms best interests. Also it will cost me funds to sell at auction should I not get a buyer. So I've just got to hang tight. I hope you have better luck with your mom home, didn't think they were building any of these types of homes now. It's a bloody to cheek to people who have brought. You ring your HA or local LA for advice too, they may buy back should your mom need it for future care needs,SJCares.
  5. cragmaid

    cragmaid Registered User

    Oct 18, 2010
    North East England
    When you entered the Def. Payment scheme ( I say you but it might have been Mum, either way I presume you are now working under an LPA) the LA should have assigned a value to give them a figure to work from. If you cannot get a sale figure near to this amount, I suggest you go back to the LA and ask them to revalue the property as it seems that you will not be able to attain a reasonable sale price. I should explain to them that buyers are having difficulty getting mortgages on what were known as " Pre-fab" houses and are reluctant to offer the asking price ore even near to it.

    Ask them what happens if Mum's house cannot be sold, do they continue to pay the fees once the projected value is reached? Have they suggest a time frame that they will be able to fund the care home placement?

    I know the rules have changed somewhat, but my Mum had been in the CH over 18 months before I was able to sell her house. Having reduced it by £25.000 we actually ended up buying it ourselves, when the house we were buying fell through. The reduced price was in fact the figure the LA valuer put on paper, so we were not acting improperly.
    The point I am making is that this was 18 months or more after the house was put on the market and there had been zero pressure from the LA.

    Speak to the LA and see what advice they can come up with....after all it will be to their benefit to raise as much capital as possible.
    Don't make yourself ill over this, you won't be the first or last person to face this problem and there will be a way round it.
    Take care....Maureen.
  6. MinnieMouse

    MinnieMouse Registered User

    Jun 24, 2012
    North West
    Under the new Care Act 2014 I have been told this week they would have to leave your Mum with 23k and just because you are LPA like I am you Power of Attorney dies (sorry) when your family member does so you are not liable at all for debts they will have to wait until the property has been sold. Have you spoke to the citizens advice bureau and do you know you can get 30 mins free legal advice at a Solicitors? Xxx
    I was also told they wipe the outstanding debt as if your family member hasn't got it they can't take what's owed. I was also worried about this as there is a lot of what ifs out there so better to ask now to save all the worry x
  7. sjcares

    sjcares Registered User

    Oct 1, 2012
    Thanks Maureen and minnie

    I will certainly do that with LA, get them to re value etc and ask a time frame they will still fund moms care. Yes, they are still paying the deferred payment as her saving have gone down below 23 grand, I paid their bill when I got deputyship through, which is different to L.P.A. You have to write an annually report about what decisions you make in moms best interests, and why you spent her funds. not just keeping receipts( eg I brought a funeral plan for mom and will have say why I did now etc.(it was moms wish as spoke about it before losing capacity.) L.O.P. you don't have to do this to a fuller extent. Mom as to have a surety bond like a insurance, of £240pa to O.P.G. incase I do anything wrong and the money goes. Yearly court fees £300 and £100pa deputy fees, which may be waivered due to mom being on pension credit. I'm her sole daughter also, I worry what's in the best interests for mom because she will be paying over £1,000 in DD bills should this dilemma carry on for years. It's very worrying. Sol and agent also C.A.B. say hold out for cash buyer. Sorry for rant Mad:(
  8. sjcares

    sjcares Registered User

    Oct 1, 2012
    Hi Maureen,
    You have been so helpful thanks, to me in the past and now. I haven't been on the site for a while as mom took a turn for the worse last June, had water infections, she wouldn't response to carers that came to the house, Had nasty falls also and lost capacity, I was locked in with her as she wanders, and she wouldn't always go out as didn't know who I was sometimes. Wouldn't pay for towards outing etc, and forgot her pin number for the bank, so I was left to keep her in food etc,as bills paid by DD. It was advised that she go into a home after repeated falls, and water infections. She is in a new home that specialise in dementia care and is very happy. It is near to me and her care is very good. I had to ask her brothers to help with the court fees to apply for deputyship as mom wouldn't sign a L.P.A. It's been very stressful awaiting C.0.P. wish I'd read the thread about doing it myself, It's cost mom £2,800. once I paid that and her brother and the deferred payment back to LA her saving had gone below 23grand. The house is roughly worth 110. doubt if I will get that, will have to lower it for cash buyer, one went near to mom for 98grand,if I cant get near to that and can't sell then If HA buy back I bet I wouldn't even get near amount offered. So worrying. Sue.
  9. garnuft

    garnuft Registered User

    Sep 7, 2012
    Non standard construction houses.

    I lived in one...a 'steel' house for 15 years, my son and ex still live in it BUT they were always hard to mortgage and in the current climate, I would think exceptionally so. can only work with what you have...the LA are not ignorant of all these things, they know the facts too...Well...their legal department will, not everyone you speak to.

    I think auction is probably the only option, which will probs mean it will be snapped up by a buy-to-let landlord who will have a GREAT house at a knock down price while raking in the rental.

    Which is a crying shame.

    But if you get a good enough price for your Mum (work out the minimum you want) it is better than a white elephant.

    Worrying times for you indeed.

    But worry about things you can affect and let go of the things you can't, easier said than done I know (2Jay's catchphrase :) ) but you can only work with the tools that you have.

    Hope it all goes through and you wonder what you were so worried about and I hope your Mum stays well and content in her lovely new home for the rest of her days, her daughter has watched her corner well. x
  10. Not so Rosy

    Not so Rosy Registered User

    Nov 30, 2013
    I recently had to sell my Dads house which was in a road that has been flooded making it virtually unmortgageable.

    I printed up some leaflets and targeted local builders vans parked at or near the local pub and in the village car park. I offered a finders fee for anyone introducing a buyer. Word got around and I sold to a buy to let landlord pretty quickly.
  11. betsie

    betsie Registered User

    Jun 11, 2012
    Have you thought about selling it at auction?
    You get lots of landlords buying cheaper properties to rent out. You can set a reserve so it doesn't go for a stupid price. At least it would be all sorted quickly. If it is all going on care costs isn't it best to try and get it sold ASAP, as soon as your mum is down to the £23k limit the LA will have to pay for her care anyway. It will also be one less thing for you to worry about.
  12. sjcares

    sjcares Registered User

    Oct 1, 2012
    Thank you all for your kind support, LA are paying, Mom savings is down below 23k, The LA did her care means test assessment and the house supposedly is worth 110K on the open market. But because it's very difficult to get mortgages on these houses, cash buyers want it very very low. Got to talk to HA who brought the housing stock from LA in the early 00's They may buy it back, a better opinions then a auction as this will cost my mom money even if no buyer on the day, Not in my moms best interests, as I can only do certain things as her deputy. HAVEN'T GOT LPA.
    Been told by sols its not advisable to sell at auction as I will have to pay fees.

    What's making me angry, is the sol and EA haven't mentioned that HA may buy back, THEY WOULD'NT WOULD THEY, AS THEY HOPE TO GET MONEY WHEN MOM SELLS HOUSE,but surely sol should of mentioned the possibility as she will be moms conveyencing sol, which I will still need, to sell back surely?

    I'm using this solicitor because mom as the deeds to house with them and her will, for ease, but they charged mom an arm and a leg to do the deputy application which took 8 months. But I can also get free advice from another and speak to HA legal team. I feel sorry for younger people who have brought these homes, they have built extensions with bedrooms above, making them very desirable 4 bedrooms, some sold in the early 00's for 129K 3 bedroom in the condition moms is now. Nothing wrong with the structure, as people wouldn't be allowed to build extensions etc? These people wont get the money back, if they want to sell to downsize, for care needs or to leave to loved ones in their will. Also HA wont do all the necessary build regs work just to make them more energy efficient, because of the extra costs, as non have been done in moms street, they will put new kitchens, windows and central heating for tenants, so it's win win for them. My mom may get offered 70 -80 grand if that, she spent thousands on bathroom, windows, landscape front and back garden since my dad passed, if that, I really feel like writing to local paper, maybe that will make someone sit up and take notice. Grrrrrh! I'm so lonely without mom, jobless and have no partner, can't get a job, been out of work for 3 years as her carer, I'm 57, vol work, I would do, I can only work in office as have a disability, got quals and experience, but firms won't pay bus fares which would cost me £4.20 a day, can't afford to pay that on JSA daily. ,So I feel very down and lonely at mo sorry all. As feel so helpless to help mom and grieving for mom too. I want to fight her corner, mom and dad worked so hard to buy their home in the 80's. Now there will be a pittance for care.
  13. sjcares

    sjcares Registered User

    Oct 1, 2012
    If anyone wants to look at the fore mentioned house, It's with John German Stafford. dropped price to 115.950K 3 bedroom semi, used this price to get what I can, as a guide.

    But only been on market for 5 weeks, It's a wimpy no fines construction,1949, a steel frame was built with a strong steel mess and blocks, no fines concrete was poured into the cavity mixed with stone chippings and no sand, This made it very strong, dearer than building with brick today, then they where rendered to protect from weather, High rise flats still exist built this way, STUPID BANKS. I'ts not a prefab or it not a timber framed, where concrete blocks cover the outside ,SOME of these are on a defects list all over UK. MY moms house isn't on any defects list and some banks do lend, desirable housing for young families. But all these concrete constructions homes are tarred with same brush, It's maddening and stressful, as if this carry's on for months, will LA move my mom from the lovely CH and go into one less favourable one? SJcares

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