Can they do this?

MillyP

Registered User
Jan 5, 2007
108
London
Ok, today I received a letter from Social services saying that Dad was on a waiting list to be assigned a Social worker....made me so angry I phoned them up and they immediately got the duty social worker to phone me back...explained that Mum couldn't cope and needed emergency restbite asap....they said they would sort it. I contacted Dads CPN who in turn gave all the details to Social services to speed up the paper work...anyway, they are asking Mum for £68 something every week towards his keep...money she just can't afford to give up...after paying council tax and utility bills etc and all Dads debts, she is left with virtually nothing...she gets no benefits. They said to get him into restbite and they would send round someone to assess my mums finances...they were quite abrupt and told us to get intouch with Citizens Advice Bureaux who will tell us what to do....CPN is bringing round paper work tomorrow for Mum to sign but we're not sure what it is to be signed.....can they take Dads pension money?
 
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jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,448
Hi Milly

It's a complex issue (are you surprised?) Have they actually done a financial assessment or is this a figure they've pulled out of the air?
 

Kate P

Registered User
Jul 6, 2007
565
Merseyside
Hi Milly,

I find it strange that your parents are not receiving any benefits because I'd bet my bottom dollar they'll be entitled to some.

If you want to PM me a few details such as their ages, any medical conditions etc I might be able to point you in the right direction. (I work for DWP)
 

MillyP

Registered User
Jan 5, 2007
108
London
I did ring them but now I'm more confused...they said they couldn't touch any of Mums half of the money but they could take Dads as long as they leave him pocket money of £19.60 each week :( ...
something about LASSL(2005)6...
Said to tell the social services that the "liable relative rule" was repelled in April 2006 :confused: ...Mum couldn't live on her savings and pension alone...Social services said, "it would be no different to Dad living at home so that's why she has to pay £68 something for his keep....But that means she would have to pay the same water rates, council tax etc and still have to fork out for Dads care...it's ludicrous:(...
 
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jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,448
I would agree with Nada. This whole thing is very dependent on LA area. Theoretically, your mother would have had a carer's assessment, a financial assessment and then respite would be arranged, but obviously this isn't happening here. When that has happened, and your mother has been advised to apply for all the benfits to which she's enititled (at the very least attendance allowance) then no, they won't take the money she needs to live, but at the moment you're caught between a rock and a hard place. Some specific LAs have guidance about this, but I can't find any nationwide regulations.
 

christine_batch

Registered User
Jul 31, 2007
3,388
Buckinghamshire
Don't know if this will help !

Dear Milly,
When my husband was diagnoised age 58 with A.D. a form was signed and we did not have to pay Council Tax. You could contact Pension Credit and ask for someone to come and check all finances with you regarding benefits etc., One word of caution, please do not let you Mother sign anything until you have checked yourself what she is signing. Alzheimers Society's Legal Department as well as your local branch can offer help. As I am disbaled still with a mortgage, when Peter was taken into Care, I was presented with a bill. I queried the bill with the Local Authorities and they halfed it. Taking Peter's Incapacity Benefit, part of the Care Component of D.L.A. Unfortunately what the Goverment say we have to live on per week is ludicrous. I wish you the best of luck as it is extra work, worry and stress that we can do without as Carers'. Best wishes. Christine
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,448
Dear Milly

Local government charging procedures need to conform to CRAG Charging for residential accommodation guide (available at http://www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publication...tions/PublicationsPolicyAndGuidance/DH_073650)

Unfortunately, from your position, temporary placements do not require the LA to perform a financial assessment (although they may do so) and if they do not the guidance states "Where no assessment is made, the charge is the amount it appears reasonable to the LA for the resident to pay."

For this reason I would strongly recommend if at all possible not signing something that indicates this placement is termporary - I have no doubt that from what you say, that should a proper financial assessment be carried out, your mother would not be expected to pay this money (or at least not this amount), because on reading the guidance it would appear that there is no requirement to apply the rules restrospectively. In other words, your mother could get a bill for £68 for 8 weeks before they have to do an assessment. This may be an emergency placement but I would suggest, if it is intended that this is to be permament, that no one from your side calls it "respite" since that sends the wrong message to all concerned, and you need to be absolutely clear about this with them.

best wishes
 

Skye

Registered User
Aug 29, 2006
17,000
SW Scotland
Milly, one more suggestion. Do you have a local branch of Princess Royal Trust? Is so, they'll help you with all the forms, and liaise with SS for you. I've found them very helpful.

Love,
 

chip

Registered User
Jul 19, 2005
400
Scotland
I am also worried about this. I've been told they will take half my husbands pension to pay for nursing home care and half the joint bank accout. This will leave me with not enough to pay household bills and food. I've also been told its up to the discresion of the Social Services and them i most defently do not trust. Why do we pay tax and NI? Are sick people being made to pay twice? I can't work because of my leg and it takes so long to get hospital appointments so to get diagnoised and treated. If he does go into a nursing home (which is still in the 50-50 stage) and i start getting letters / phone calls for not being able to pay bills i will tell them just contact the social services as its them who is taking the money. Our gas and electricity doubled when he was at home so the monthly payments doubled and thats still being paid. The cost of them being at home is not thought about. I read somewhere that Social Services can't out you in dept.
Find out if they can get NHS respite you don't pay for that.
 

MillyP

Registered User
Jan 5, 2007
108
London
Ok, Update....Dad is still at home causing havoc...I cancelled any talk of restbite for him after Mum didn't think she could meet the payments and wanted to be assessed first....spoke to the CPN and the duty Social worker who agreed with what we wanted and so after many phone calls to this one and that, the DWP are coming to see my Mum next Thursday to assess her situation and see if she is entitled to any benefits.....they want to know who his Social worker is...do I just say he hasn't been assigned one or do I tell them to speak to social services about that...he doesn't have one as far as I'm aware and is waiting to be allocated one. Anyone tell me if there are any do's and don'ts when they come to visit...all advice appreciated. Thanks :)
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,448
Both I think Milly: tell them he hasn't got one as far as you're aware and that they need to speak to social services about it! I always found the DWP to be much easier to deal with than Local Authority social services personel: they seem to be much more about ensuring that people get what their entitled to rather than protecting their budget - I imagine that's simply to do with the way the systems are set up. While the LA workers have a budget that they need to share out, the DWP is more concerned with uptake of their programs.

However, have you got a date yet for the local authority to do their financial assessment? Because until that's done, you're going to be swinging in the wind.
 

MillyP

Registered User
Jan 5, 2007
108
London
jenniferpa said:
However, have you got a date yet for the local authority to do their financial assessment? Because until that's done, you're going to be swinging in the wind.
No hun...I did ask the duty social worker and she said that they always put people into restbite first and after eight weeks do a financial assesment...it seems like we're caught between the devil and the deep blue sea...they won't do one, even though I have asked for it....do you think I should contact the duty social worker and ask again?
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,448
Let me get this straight - they claim that every single placement they make they fail to do a financial assessment until 8 weeks post placement? Even when the placement is permanent? Let me see if I can find something about this, because if that's really the case it sounds like they're skirting the spirit if not the letter of the guidelines.

CRAG says

1.028 Admissions to residential accommodation should be deemed temporary or permanent depending solely on the needs and circumstances of individual service users. As such councils’ or users' resources should play no part in the decision. Knowing whether they are permanent or temporary will matter a great deal to residents and carers. Hence decisions about the status of admission should be made, agreed and shared, openly with them - or others on their behalf if appropriate - and put in writing.


Permanent residents

4.006 Where one, or both, members of a couple, or civil partnership, are admitted permanently to residential accommodation the LA must assess their ability to contribute towards the charge according to their individual resources following the rules laid down in Sections 5 to 13.


This 8 week period of grace the LA appears to believe they have applies ONLY to temporary residents. Mention of the 8 weeks appears only under the section relating to such temporary residents, which is why I believe that they are not conforming even to the letter of the guidlines, let alone the spirit.

The appropriate section is as follows

Charging for temporary stay

Up to 8 weeks

3.005 An assessment of ability to pay is not required for the first eight weeks of a temporary stay. It will be for the local authority to decide in each case whether to make an assessment. Where the local authority decides it is appropriate to make an assessment, follow the guidance in Sections 4 to 13. Where no assessment is made, the charge is the amount it appears reasonable to the LA for the resident to pay.

You'll note that it comes under "charging for temporary stay", not under charging for permanent stay.

It depends on how confrontational you feel. In your position I would go back to the duty social worker and ask for the council's guidelines in writing, since what you have been told seems to contravene CRAG (and I'd tell them that as well). Ask them under what stautory regulations they are permitted to define everyone as temporary residents, even those for whom this is an intended permanent placement. After all, section 1.028 of CRAG indicates that this determination should be made solely on the basis of the service users situation - having a "one size fit all" approach seem on the face of it to contravene that, so surely :rolleyes: they must have some regulation they can produce that indicates that they are allowed to ignore this. You don't, of course, have to be as sarcastic as I have been - just make them aware that you are aware that their approach does not match published guidlines, so you are seeking clarification.
 

MillyP

Registered User
Jan 5, 2007
108
London
Will phone them tomorrow and let you know what they say....I don't mind being confrontational at all, as long as I have the facts in front of me...the sooner this is sorted out the better in my view...thanks hun.:)
 

Margarita

Registered User
Feb 17, 2006
10,824
london
explained that Mum couldn't cope and needed emergency restbite asap...
I am a bit lost now with this thread . as I thought you was just looking for emergency respite , are you looking for emergency respite then keeping your father in a home for good ?

when my mother went in to emergency respite they did say that they where going to take all her pension , then they change they mind , ask if mum has any saving I said no and they went ahead with the emergency respite and did not pay a penny toward it , unless your mother has saving over a certain amount , they won't charge you anything . even if she own her own home .

benefits like pension credit are means tested , to do with how much saving you have in an account .attendances allowance is not mean tested

PS

in my experience with social worker they stress you out , before offering you the service , with worrying how much you have to pay forward something , then they get it wrong and you don't have to pay for anything as long as you don't have a real large saving in the bank , and now of hand can't remember how much that is.

If your mother can't pay she just can't pay and they can't stop from offering her the services just because they have not done a financial assessment .

may be that why they going on that 8 week thing that is mention above .

and she should not stop from having emergency respite because she worried about that she can not pay . she should go ahead with it .
 
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