Campaign for changes to LPA

[Alex54]

I want to start a new campaign for a new form of LPA and would welcome your views.

If you never applied for LPA and your loved one is diagnosed with Alzheimer's's and has lost capacity then it is too late for an LPA. The only option left is Deputyship with the Court of Protection, but that is expensive and also seldom grated for health issues.

The problem comes when the NHS and social workers come out with the following statement:

"As there is no LPA we have to make the decisions"

This really annoys me, I look after my wife 24 hours a day, seven days a week, yet some 'jobsworth' think they know better. All I am asking is that where there is a clear case of commitment we should be treated as if we had an LPA.

What I am suggesting is that they should be the possibility to apply for an LPA after the person concerned has lost the ability to grant approval. It should be for health only and have no control over financial issues.

What do you think?

 

[Louise7]

If you never applied for LPA and your loved one is diagnosed with Alzheimer's's then it is too late for an LPA.

A diagnosis doesn't mean that it's too late for an LPA - it can still be obtained after a diagnosis providing that the individual has mental capacity to understand what an LPA is. Reductions in the cost of Deputyship are available to those on a low income.

If there is no LPA and a person has lost capacity then as per the Mental Capacity Act decisions should be made in the persons 'best interests' but relatives/carers should still be involved in these decisions whether they have LPA or not:

It's vital to consult with others for their views about the person's best interests.

In particular, try to consult:

• anyone previously named by the individual
• anyone engaged in caring for them
• close relatives and friends
• any attorney appointed under a Lasting Power of Attorney or Enduring Power of Attorney
• any deputy appointed by the Court of Protection to make decisions for the person

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/social-care-and-support-guide/making-decisions-for-someone-else/mental-capacity-act/

If family disagree with 'best interest' decisions then there is scope for an independent person to make decisions and an option is to contact the OPG and challenge the matter in court, however this is lengthy and potentially costly. There is also scope for an independent person problems we experienced when Mum was in hospital is that some, not all, staff appeared to have absolutely no knowledge of the Mental Capacity Act and didn't understand that an LPA was a legal authority. We did raise this with the hospital and they replied that all staff get such training every 3 years, but did not explain why they were not adhering to this training.

The 'best interest' principles should be fine in the absence of an LPA providing that staff follow the principles of the Mental Capacity Act and involve family etc in the decision making process. Even in cases where someone does have LPA their wishes will not be followed if their decision results in any safeguarding issues so it is not a document that allows Attorney's to override every 'best interest' decision regardless.

The purpose of the LPA is for the individual to nominate someone to carry out their wishes so making it possible for people to get LPA after the individual has lost capacity will undermine that process and may be a safeguarding risk.

We found that even with an LPA staff were paying no attention to it so I think ensuring that staff are educated in the Mental capacity Act and LPA provisions, and recognise that those caring for people with dementia have an important part to play in care decisions, will be a better way forward than making it possible for people to get LPA when capacity has been lost.

 

[Alex54]

A diagnosis doesn't mean that it's too late for an LPA - it can still be obtained after a diagnosis providing that the individual has mental capacity to understand what an LPA is. Reductions in the cost of Deputyship are available to those on a low income.

Thanks, Louise I have changed the sentence to include capacity.
However, my understanding is that it is very difficult to get Deputyship for health issues.

 

[Beate]

The LPA after someone has lost capacity is called deputyship. The legalities don't allow anyone to apply for LPA then as an LPA is something the donor has to take out. If you want to campaign for something, campaign for health deputyships to be granted more often.

 

[Alex54]

campaign for health deputyships to be granted more often.

Courts do not like getting dragged into health matters. All I am asking for is just because we do not have LPA don't treat us as if LPA was refused.

 

[Grannie G]

I agree @Alex54 but an LPA can still be agreed after diagnosis. It is only registered once it has been established capacity has been lost.

We made mutual EPAs, the old enduring powers of attorney , after diagnosis. We obtained a list of solicitors from one of the mental health charities who had professed to have sympathy and understanding of mental health issues in the elderly.

In one meeting with the solicitor, I was asked to leave the room while it was established my husband had a fair understanding of what he was undertaking.

My husband`s health issues were always discussed with both of us, as were my mother`s.

 

[Louise7]

Courts do not like getting dragged into health matters.

I just found this after a quick internet search, stating that it is common for the court to make orders relating to health/welfare decisions:

Appointing a deputy for health and welfare is uncommon and usually an option of last resort.

The Court may appoint a deputy where a decision is in dispute, the decision is complex and difficult, or ongoing decisions need to be made for a vulnerable person. For example, if consecutive medical treatments are required in a short period of time.

However, it is common for the Court to make an order in relation to a specific issue as oppose to delegating decision-making powers generally to a health and welfare deputy. This is because the Court prefers to retain powers in this respect given the sensitive and often complex nature of the decisions to be made.


https://www.anthonygold.co.uk/latest/blog/when-will-the-court-of-protection-appoint-a-health-and-welfare-deputy/

Is your specific issue that the NHS staff/social workers didn't include you in 'best interest' decisions or that they did but you disagreed with their decisions?

 

[worriedson77]

I wonder if there could be a slight change in that when the LPA is being registered it can be recognised as "Approved in principle" a bit like mortgages, it doesnt mean that the LPA cant be objected to etc but may help in circumstances where the pwd has not had a formal diagnosis from a memory clinic as they can take ages but could do with assistance with things like conversations with social services etc in the meantime. It's a tricky area really because the capacity act in particular assumes capacity and also allows for unwise decisions to be made but what you see as a full time carer no doubt is more detailed and accurate than can be seen from flying visits and phonecalls.

 

[Louise7]

I wonder if there could be a slight change in that when the LPA is being registered it can be recognised as "Approved in principle" a bit like mortgages, it doesnt mean that the LPA cant be objected to etc but may help in circumstances where the pwd has not had a formal diagnosis from a memory clinic as they can take ages but could do with assistance with things like conversations with social services etc in the meantime.

Unlike a financial LPA, a Health & Welfare LPA can only be used when the person is deemed to lack capacity, and a formal diagnosis doesn't mean that someone lacks capacity. The LPA authorises the attorney to make Health & Welfare decisions on their behalf but doesn't mean that a relative/carer can't be involved in conversations about the person's care without having an LPA as this is covered by the Mental Capacity Act.

If you want to campaign for something, campaign for health deputyships to be granted more often.

I think the most important thing to 'campaign' about in these issues is to make everyone aware of how important it is to put Financial and Health & Welfare LPA's in place - don't put it off until there is a dementia diagnosis, do it now.

 

[Alex54]

Is your specific issue that the NHS staff/social workers didn't include you in 'best interest' decisions or that they did but you disagreed with their decisions?

I just want to be treated the same as someone who has LPA, when you get some jobsworth saying "As there is no LPA we have to make the decisions" you know you are in for a long meeting and delays. Don't misunderstand what I am saying, the professionals can and should make sure the right decisions are made, but why should someone with LPA be treated differently to someone who does not have LPA. All too often the professionals see the lack of an LPA as a requirement to make the decisions.

 

[Alex54]

I think the most important thing to 'campaign' about in these issues is to make everyone aware of how important it is to put Financial and Health & Welfare LPA's in place - don't put it off until there is a dementia diagnosis, do it now.

We had no opportunity to apply for an LPA, a UTI infection seriously affected my wife and we were only in the UK for a holiday, then social services said we could not go back to our home in France.

 

[Beate]

Courts do not like getting dragged into health matters. All I am asking for is just because we do not have LPA don't treat us as if LPA was refused.

That's a bit like saying, just because he didn't make a will, don't treat me as not eligible for his money. Some things need to exist in written form, although I think professionals are generally more flexible when it comes to health matters than with financial matters.

 

[Hotdoggy]

We had no opportunity to apply for an LPA, a UTI infection seriously affected my wife and we were only in the UK for a holiday, then social services said we could not go back to our home in France.

Gosh, it sounds horrendous and obviously a complicated matter. Is there a possibility that you will be able to return with your wife back to France sometime soon?

 

[Jessbow]

I find it hard to know what you are wanting could be used for/in what circumstances.

I did have LPA for my now late mother, but dont think i ever had to use it/ asked to show it/whatever in relation to herhealth & welfare.

in what circumstances specifically do you think it would be useful?

 

[Spamar]

And the moral is, do your LPAs early. We did ours after fil lost capacity and OH had to deal with his affairs.

There is no earliest date you can apply, so do it now. Certainly most of my wider family applied for LPAs around that time and many executors were very pleased they did!

 

[AliceinWonderland]

Hello. We dithered a long time before organising LPAs for my partner after his Lewy Body dementia diagnosis. We decided to do the health one first after a friend of my mum's was stranded in a care home on the other side of town away from all her friends as there was nothing in place to say where she wanted to be. When my partner was being discharged from hospital his care LPA was taken into consideration as it stated that he wanted to remain in his own community so that his friends could visit him. So far this has happened. The financial one is now in hand but please do consider doing the care one. It could be very helpful to you. I printed the form off the internet and we did it ourselves. You do need a witness but this only needs to be a long term friend who can tell if the person making the LPA is aware of what they are doing. I wish you all the best.

 

[Alex54]

Is there a possibility that you will be able to return with your wife back to France sometime soon?

I would love us to return to our home in France but my wife's Alzheimer's is too advanced. Last year social services said they would want to see detailed proof of the care plan in France before they would even consider it. Catch 22, can't get a care plan until we move back to France, but can't move back to France until we get a care plan.

 

[Alex54]

in what circumstances specifically do you think it would be useful?

It would stop the 'jobsworth' idiots who believe because there is no LPA they have the right to say how my wife is looked after. The lastest 'jobsworth' is trying to force my wife to sleep at floor level because it would reduce the risk of falling out of bed, despite the fact that she has never fallen out of bed or is in any danger. The lack of the LPA means they have a duty to look at things differently.

 

[Hotdoggy]

I would love us to return to our home in France but my wife's Alzheimer's is too advanced. Last year social services said they would want to see detailed proof of the care plan in France before they would even consider it. Catch 22, can't get a care plan until we move back to France, but can't move back to France until we get a care plan.

That’s such a shame ...yes, I thought that might be the case . My late FIL (French) always spoke very highly of the care system in France - a very difficult situation for you & I empathise

 

[northumbrian_k]

I am sorry to see the repeated use of the pejorative term 'jobsworth'. Viewing things in that way does not seem conducive to building positive relationships with professional staff. It is possible to hold different views and still work together in the interest of the person with dementia.