Beware a joint account

[john1939]

Hello. I hope all have had a pleasant Christmas . My wife went into a full time care home on 20th October last year. The DSS required me to forward a full account of our financial situation so that they could work out how much they would contribute.
This morning their report arrived and folks it was grim reading. I mentioned that we held a current account and I was the main contributor by far as my wife only had a small retirement pension due to the number of contributions.
The DSS simply divided by half and deemed that this was her "assets". They then did similar with a joint building society account which contained my redundancy money. These combined sums meant that my wife's assets exceeded the upper limit of £23250.
The DSS stated that I must pay the full amount of £688.00 PW until the assets drop below the £23250 limit.
I have no problem paying for my wife's care but I do think that the DSS are being draconian in their estimate of my wife's "assets"
Moral: if you have a partner or spouse then keep your financial affairs as separate as possible. Happy New Year.

 

[canary]

Yes @john1939 , you are absolutely right. It is always best to separate out the finances.

 

[thistlejak]

Unfortunately for you the legal position for accounts in more than one name is that the money belong to all equally. We were told this by the bank when my mother added my name to her account in order for me to do online banking after our local branch closed down . In our case I make no contributions to this account but , in law, half the money is mine and should anything happen to my mother I would be given all the money in the account ( I have assured my mother that I would honour her will and distribute it accordingly)

DSS are not being draconian but following the law.
I am not sure how far back they would have gone had you separated the money previously , as I have no experience of this but I am sure someone will be along with more information.

 

[Long journey ahead]

Unfortunately for you the legal position for accounts in more than one name is that the money belong to all equally. We were told this by the bank when my mother added my name to her account in order for me to do online banking after our local branch closed down . In our case I make no contributions to this account but , in law, half the money is mine and should anything happen to my mother I would be given all the money in the account ( I have assured my mother that I would honour her will and distribute it accordingly)

DSS are not being draconian but following the law.
I am not sure how far back they would have gone had you separated the money previously , as I have no experience of this but I am sure someone will be along with more information.

Please do you know if my husband has to go into care if my money is taken into account if it is solely in my name?

 

[canary]

Please do you know if my husband has to go into care if my money is taken into account if it is solely in my name?

No, anything solely in your name will not be counted.
It is only accounts in his name and 50% of joint ones that are counted.

 

[Susan11]

Hello. I hope all have had a pleasant Christmas . My wife went into a full time care home on 20th October last year. The DSS required me to forward a full account of our financial situation so that they could work out how much they would contribute.
This morning their report arrived and folks it was grim reading. I mentioned that we held a current account and I was the main contributor by far as my wife only had a small retirement pension due to the number of contributions.
The DSS simply divided by half and deemed that this was her "assets". They then did similar with a joint building society account which contained my redundancy money. These combined sums meant that my wife's assets exceeded the upper limit of £23250.
The DSS stated that I must pay the full amount of £688.00 PW until the assets drop below the £23250 limit.
I have no problem paying for my wife's care but I do think that the DSS are being draconian in their estimate of my wife's "assets"
Moral: if you have a partner or spouse then keep your financial affairs as separate as possible. Happy New Year.

It's difficult but if it had been the other way round and you had gone into care first under your suggestion all the money could have been spent on your care leaving none for your wife! Never any easy answers when you start looking at the costs of care.

 

[john1939]

Unfortunately for you the legal position for accounts in more than one name is that the money belong to all equally. We were told this by the bank when my mother added my name to her account in order for me to do online banking after our local branch closed down . In our case I make no contributions to this account but , in law, half the money is mine and should anything happen to my mother I would be given all the money in the account ( I have assured my mother that I would honour her will and distribute it accordingly)

DSS are not being draconian but following the law.
I am not sure how far back they would have gone had you separated the money previously , as I have no experience of this but I am sure someone will be along with more information.

Yeah, just the fallout from Alzheimers . I understand that most young couples have their own bank accounts nowadays and they pay bills on an agreed basis.

 

[Lilac Angelica]

Hello. I hope all have had a pleasant Christmas . My wife went into a full time care home on 20th October last year. The DSS required me to forward a full account of our financial situation so that they could work out how much they would contribute.
This morning their report arrived and folks it was grim reading. I mentioned that we held a current account and I was the main contributor by far as my wife only had a small retirement pension due to the number of contributions.
The DSS simply divided by half and deemed that this was her "assets". They then did similar with a joint building society account which contained my redundancy money. These combined sums meant that my wife's assets exceeded the upper limit of £23250.
The DSS stated that I must pay the full amount of £688.00 PW until the assets drop below the £23250 limit.
I have no problem paying for my wife's care but I do think that the DSS are being draconian in their estimate of my wife's "assets"
Moral: if you have a partner or spouse then keep your financial affairs as separate as possible. Happy New Year.

Hi John 1939,
I can imagine how very upsetting and annoying this will be for you. Whilst I agree with others that monies held in joint accounts are legally split 50/50, I guess it would still be worth possibly trying to challenge the reply you received and asking for it to be looked at again. I'm not saying that you will be successful, (perhaps you won't be) but it could perhaps be worth a try. If you got documentary evidence together for proving your wife's pension payments versus yours and written proof of your redundancy monies etc. Also, you could remove your redundancy monies to a separate account in only your name, and explain to them that you have done this and show the new balance providing documentary proof. Also, I guess you could remove the extra monies in the joint account that are your input, and open a new single account for your pension payments to be paid into. I would show and explain it all with written proof, so that you end up with accounts that are just your wife's own monies, and ask them to look at it again.

It may be that you will end up with the same answer as before, however there is a slight possibility that provided you have given enough written proof, that you may be lucky enough to get a fairer answer (may not happen!).

Good luck if you decide to try to get it relooked at.

 

[john1939]

Yeah, just the fallout from Alzheimers . I understand that most young couples have their own bank accounts nowadays and they pay bills on an agreed basis. This is a pdf outlining the way fees are caclulated in N Ireland

 

[john1939]

It's difficult but if it had been the other way round and you had gone into care first under your suggestion all the money could have been spent on your care leaving none for your wife! Never any easy answers when you start looking at the costs of care.

Read my original post again. I stated that I had no problem paying for my wife's care only in the way it was calculated.

 

[cobden 28]

Yeah, just the fallout from Alzheimers . I understand that most young couples have their own bank accounts nowadays and they pay bills on an agreed basis.

My ex and I - now divorced - always had our separate bank accounts in our own names, but we also had a joint savings account to which we both had access if needs be. when my dad died and left me some money it was all my money and nothing to do with my husband; my inheritance went into my private bank account in my sole name to which my husband had no access.

 

[Susan11]

Read my original post again. I stated that I had no problem paying for my wife's care only in the way it was calculated.

I had read your post. I was just pointing out what would have happened if you had gone into care first.

 

[Cazcaz]

Hi John 1939,
I can imagine how very upsetting and annoying this will be for you. Whilst I agree with others that monies held in joint accounts are legally split 50/50, I guess it would still be worth possibly trying to challenge the reply you received and asking for it to be looked at again. I'm not saying that you will be successful, (perhaps you won't be) but it could perhaps be worth a try. If you got documentary evidence together for proving your wife's pension payments versus yours and written proof of your redundancy monies etc. Also, you could remove your redundancy monies to a separate account in only your name, and explain to them that you have done this and show the new balance providing documentary proof. Also, I guess you could remove the extra monies in the joint account that are your input, and open a new single account for your pension payments to be paid into. I would show and explain it all with written proof, so that you end up with accounts that are just your wife's own monies, and ask them to look at it again.

It may be that you will end up with the same answer as before, however there is a slight possibility that provided you have given enough written proof, that you may be lucky enough to get a fairer answer (may not happen!).

Good luck if you decide to try to get it relooked at.

Any attempt to remove money from joint accounts to one just in a single name would count as deprivation of assets and would have to be paid right back.

 

[nitram]

Any attempt to remove money from joint accounts to one just in a single name would count as deprivation of assets and would have to be paid right back.

Not exactly correct, it would be treated as notional capital effectively raising the upper and lower limits.
The LA will only ask for repayment when capital drops to the raised upper limit and it has to start funding.

 

[Cazcaz]

Not exactly correct, it would be treated as notional capital effectively raising the upper and lower limits.
The LA will only ask for repayment when capital drops to the raised upper limit and it has to start funding.

The effect is the same. It is as if the money had not been withdrawn.

If a joint account holder moves money into an account in just his or her name only, the money is treated as though it is still in the joint account.

But there are instances I have read of this being called deprivation of assets by some LAs. Then it does have to be paid straight back.

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs40_deprivation_of_assets_in_social_care_fcs.pdf

 

[nitram]

The effect is the same. It is as if the money had not been withdrawn.

Any attempt to remove money from joint accounts to one just in a single name would count as deprivation of assets and would have to be paid right back.

My bold.
If there is £100k and the LA find out they will not ask for repayment until the upper limit is reached.

 

[john1939]

When a partner/ spouse goes into care then the question of assets seems to be a bit of a minefield. Does anyone think that consulting a solicitor who specialises in this area would be of benefit?

 

[MartinWL]

When a partner/ spouse goes into care then the question of assets seems to be a bit of a minefield. Does anyone think that consulting a solicitor who specialises in this area would be of benefit?

Looking at your original post there isn't a legal grey area to be argued about so I doubt that there is any point in engaging a solicitor. This would be worth doing in a complex case. Your case is straightforward, you decided at some point to pool your finances and irrespective of who contributed what, she owns half the pooled funds. There isn't anything grey about that.

Yours is a salutary tale for others. Joint savings accounts are not a good plan if care costs are a future possibility and joint current accounts should not hold large balances.

I did a lot of spreadsheet analysis on my parents' finances as POA for both to see if their money should be separated but the conclusion was that there was no need as there wasn't a big imbalance and death would most probably intervene before that became a problem. Most savings were in ISA accounts that had to be in individual names.

 

[Cazcaz]

When a partner/ spouse goes into care then the question of assets seems to be a bit of a minefield. Does anyone think that consulting a solicitor who specialises in this area would be of benefit?

There is no grey area, just the terminology changes.

If you move money out of a joint account to one in just your name, it is counted as though you had not moved it.

 

[nitram]

When a partner/ spouse goes into care then the question of assets seems to be a bit of a minefield. Does anyone think that consulting a solicitor who specialises in this area would be of benefit?

Not really, an individuals assets are the sum of sole assets plus half of joint assets.

An exception where legal help could be useful is jointly owned property.
A property can be held as either tenants in common or joint tenants.

With joint tenants when one of the owners dies the whole of the property passes to the remaining owner outside of any will potentially moving a disregarded property to a person in care and available for payment of care fees.

With tenants in common either owner can make a will leaving their share to A N Other that the other owner.

Severing a tenancy to tenants in common is easy and does not need the agreement of the other owner and can be done if the other owner lacks capacity.
https://www.gov.uk/joint-property-ownership/change-from-joint-tenants-to-tenants-in-common .