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Attorneys with differing views over care - LPA

nhegarty

New member
May 22, 2020
4
My nan has had dementia for years and a LPA was made (both financial and health) with her partner and daughter being made attorneys. She has been in a care home for 14 weeks and her partner has now decided that he wants her back home. The decision was made without consulting the other attorney or any family members. He was (and still is) severely depressed and couldn't cope at all when he cared for her at home and it would not be in her best interest to move her as she is settled and cared for. We have been told to hold a best interest meeting and to take him off the LPA on the basis of that it is not the right decision for my nan and he is mentally unfit to make such decision /care for her. His doctor has also expressed her agreement to this.

Has anyone had a similar situation? If so, was it successful and what is the best way to go about resolving it?

Many thanks.
 

Banjomansmate

Registered User
Jan 13, 2019
1,775
Dorset
It will depend on whether the LPAs are held ‘jointly’ or ‘jointly and severally’ i.e. do they both have to agree to an action or can just one of them make a decision? If jointly then they both have to agree to any decisions taken.
Your Nan as the donor is the one who decides if one of them should be removed , then, on the assumption that she has the capacity to make that decision I think a new LPA is needed.
An attorney can ask to be removed if they no longer wish to do the job.

I am sure you will receive more knowledgable replies in a little while.
 

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
12,259
South coast
I should imagine that your nans partner is devestated and consumed with guilt over her having to move into a care home. He just wants to scoop her up and look after her. Weve all been there. The guilt monster whispers into our ears:
You are a terrible failure
She should be at home
Look shes better now, you could look after her now
You could do it if you just tried harder

And the guilt monster can be hard to ignore, even when you know that they are better off where they are. You only have to read a few threads on here to see how people feel.

Having said all of that, it is not a good idea to take her home. You are right in fearing that all the problems will just reappear. Can he not be persuaded that this is a foolhardy thing to do? Who is organising the Best Interest meeting? Is Social Services involved? They are unlikely to allow your nan home without a robust care plan that will meet her needs, even if your nans partner does have POA. Ultimately, it may have to go to the Court of Protection for the court to make a decision.
 

nhegarty

New member
May 22, 2020
4
It will depend on whether the LPAs are held ‘jointly’ or ‘jointly and severally’ i.e. do they both have to agree to an action or can just one of them make a decision? If jointly then they both have to agree to any decisions taken.
Your Nan as the donor is the one who decides if one of them should be removed , then, on the assumption that she has the capacity to make that decision I think a new LPA is needed.
An attorney can ask to be removed if they no longer wish to do the job.

I am sure you will receive more knowledgable replies in a little while.
Thanks for your reply. The LPA is jointly and severally. Unfortunately my nan no longer has capacity to make this decision so we will have to go through the Court of Protection to resolve this as we have already tried to reason with him.
 

nhegarty

New member
May 22, 2020
4
I should imagine that your nans partner is devestated and consumed with guilt over her having to move into a care home. He just wants to scoop her up and look after her. Weve all been there. The guilt monster whispers into our ears:
You are a terrible failure
She should be at home
Look shes better now, you could look after her now
You could do it if you just tried harder

And the guilt monster can be hard to ignore, even when you know that they are better off where they are. You only have to read a few threads on here to see how people feel.

Having said all of that, it is not a good idea to take her home. You are right in fearing that all the problems will just reappear. Can he not be persuaded that this is a foolhardy thing to do? Who is organising the Best Interest meeting? Is Social Services involved? They are unlikely to allow your nan home without a robust care plan that will meet her needs, even if your nans partner does have POA. Ultimately, it may have to go to the Court of Protection for the court to make a decision.
Thanks for your reply. We also think the same that he is feeling guilty as he tried to do this 1 month ago then said that he runs on emotions. He is currently on his own in lockdown which is most likely accelerating these feelings. We have tried to persuade him, even got the doctor to check in and talk to him about it but he is adamant that he wants to do it. Her daughter is going to ask the social worker to hold a best interest meeting. They have offered a 4 day/night care plan, however, she needs 24 hour care which is what she’s getting in the home.
 

Weasell

Registered User
Oct 21, 2019
231
I would consider an ambush.
If my understanding that to remove your self you just send in a letter, with names, date relinquishment to remove yourself Is correct? Then I would prepare the letter On his behalf.
I would get the findings of the best interest meeting on paper.
I would call round and say look I am going to pursue this to the end, I don’t want to because I know everything you do is out of love, but I have no choice.
we can do this the easy way or the hard way.
If you sign this letter the whole problem disappears.
If you don’t sign it becomes a legal problem. I am concerned that it could mean we all have large amounts of paperwork, also there is potential for us all to rack up huge legal costs.

The reason it may work is most people hate getting involved in paperwork they don’t understand. The reason it won’t work is if he has genuine mental health.

If he won’t sign but looks as though he may think about it I would advise he looks at court cases on google and tell him I will be calling round tomorrow.

I would be very aware of my body language and do my best to project ‘ we are old friends working together’ if at all possible? If I had any awareness of the time he ate I would attempt to call round when he was newly fed?
 

Louise7

Registered User
Mar 25, 2016
2,047
I would wait until after the best interests meeting before doing anything about the LPA's. The reason that you want to remove the LPA is because you don't agree that it's in your nan's best interests to go home, and the purpose of the best interest meeting is to decide whether it is or it isn't. At the meeting both atttorneys should be given the opportunity to attend and give their views, and there will probably also be input from the care home with regards to the level of your nan's care needs. If the decision is made that your nan can't go home due to safeguarding concerns then it would be up to her partner to then make an application to the court of protection to try to override this decision if he disagreed. Social services may decide to put a Deprivation of Liberty Safeguards (DOLS) order in place, which would prevent your nan from leaving the home, if they feel that it is necessary to prevent her partner removing her from the home.

I think that you're 'jumping the gun' a bit to try to remove your nan's partner from the LPA's before the best interests meeting is held, and I wouldn't advocate trying to force him or use undue influence to try to get him to stand down as attorney either. Your nan wanted him to be an attorney but if he decides for himself that he wants to stand down then he will need to complete the relevant form which is available via the OPG website. With regards to him being mentally unfit to hold the role of attorney, I'm surprised that your nan's partner's doctor has been discussing this with other family members without his knowledge, or has he given his permission for family to discuss his mental health with his GP? I appreciate that you are concerned for your nan but I would take a step back and leave this to social services and the other attorney to deal with - is that your mum? This issue needs to be dealt with one step at a time, starting with the best interests meeting.
 

nhegarty

New member
May 22, 2020
4
I would wait until after the best interests meeting before doing anything about the LPA's. The reason that you want to remove the LPA is because you don't agree that it's in your nan's best interests to go home, and the purpose of the best interest meeting is to decide whether it is or it isn't. At the meeting both atttorneys should be given the opportunity to attend and give their views, and there will probably also be input from the care home with regards to the level of your nan's care needs. If the decision is made that your nan can't go home due to safeguarding concerns then it would be up to her partner to then make an application to the court of protection to try to override this decision if he disagreed. Social services may decide to put a Deprivation of Liberty Safeguards (DOLS) order in place, which would prevent your nan from leaving the home, if they feel that it is necessary to prevent her partner removing her from the home.

I think that you're 'jumping the gun' a bit to try to remove your nan's partner from the LPA's before the best interests meeting is held, and I wouldn't advocate trying to force him or use undue influence to try to get him to stand down as attorney either. Your nan wanted him to be an attorney but if he decides for himself that he wants to stand down then he will need to complete the relevant form which is available via the OPG website. With regards to him being mentally unfit to hold the role of attorney, I'm surprised that your nan's partner's doctor has been discussing this with other family members without his knowledge, or has he given his permission for family to discuss his mental health with his GP? I appreciate that you are concerned for your nan but I would take a step back and leave this to social services and the other attorney to deal with - is that your mum? This issue needs to be dealt with one step at a time, starting with the best interests meeting.
Thanks for your reply. I think we are going to use the best interest meeting as a last attempt to get him on side. The long term decision we are considering is to remove him from the LPA as this is not the first time he has made irrational decisions which are always "knee jerk" and illogical and ultimately put my nan at risk. The trouble we have at the moment with social services is as he is willing to care for her and, unfortunately, the cost of care is into consideration, they are currently leaning towards moving her back home. We will have to persuade them that it is not in her best interest at the meeting.
He has spoken to her daughter (my mum) openly about his mental health and medications he is on etc and has told us conversations with the doctor about it, which is how we know these details. We will have to see what he says at the meeting and go from there.
 

Louise7

Registered User
Mar 25, 2016
2,047
I hope the best interests meeting goes well, and that the social worker reaches a decision that is based on your nan's care needs and safety rather than influenced by cost.
 

Bod

Registered User
Aug 30, 2013
1,239
Thanks for your reply. I think we are going to use the best interest meeting as a last attempt to get him on side. The long term decision we are considering is to remove him from the LPA as this is not the first time he has made irrational decisions which are always "knee jerk" and illogical and ultimately put my nan at risk. The trouble we have at the moment with social services is as he is willing to care for her and, unfortunately, the cost of care is into consideration, they are currently leaning towards moving her back home. We will have to persuade them that it is not in her best interest at the meeting.
He has spoken to her daughter (my mum) openly about his mental health and medications he is on etc and has told us conversations with the doctor about it, which is how we know these details. We will have to see what he says at the meeting and go from there.
If he has a history of making "knee jerk" decisions, a writtern record of these might be helpful, if only to show his state of mind. These notes, must be factually correct, and not emotional, including any "incident Numbers" issued by any authority.

Bod.