at which point does applying for an LPA becoming inapplicable?

Lisa M 99

Registered User
Feb 12, 2009
247
Winchester
Hello all,

me again! :) Thank you to everyone for all of your advice over the past 24 hours, i feel SO much happier knowing a bit more about what to do.

I just wondered if anyone knew at which point an LPA would NOT be granted? My mum is going to the gp this thurs to be referred for a mental health assessment. Not sure how long this will take but if i start the LPA process today (and i've been told it takes about 9 weeks), will the LPA still be granted until the point she has had an official diagnosis from the mental health team, even if her gp has referred her? Or will the LPA wait until the referral results come back? Do they look at med records? if so, we may not get it as mum is really on the edge already! Eeek! It's so stressful!
 

Chrissyan

Registered User
Aug 9, 2007
570
61
N E England
If your Mum is capable of understanding what she is doing, get the appointment made quickly & get her down to the solicitors & get it drawn up, before she is referred for assessment.

I don't know why drawing up an LPA should take 9 weeks, are you confusing that with registering the LPA with the Public Guardian Office? I think my Dad has a good solicitor, but we made the appointment, (it was an EPA, so easier) & when we got there she had already drawn it up on the computer. Just a few additions/amendments it was printed off and signed by us both. My brother popped in later to do his bit.

I believe registering it, when you believe they are no longer capable can take anything from 1-3 months.

Just to clarify, the LPA should be drawn up by while a person is still mentally capable & registered with the Public guardian Office when they are not.
 
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Lisa M 99

Registered User
Feb 12, 2009
247
Winchester
yes i meant the registering bit aswell which i heard takes a bit longer. mum is housebound so i wonder if it's worth getting one of those diy packs so that she doesn't have to worry about making a trip to the solicitor. i suppose as long as the LPA is lodged before any official diagnosis is given then we should be ok?
 

Chrissyan

Registered User
Aug 9, 2007
570
61
N E England
Hi,
i suppose as long as the LPA is lodged before any official diagnosis is given then we should be ok?
Yes, I would say get it drawn up asap & definitely don't wait for any medical results.;)

Worry about the registering later. I have heard they are not taking so long now anyway.
 

Clive

Registered User
Nov 7, 2004
716
Lisa

It is getting the SIGNITURES on the LPA that’s important. Not the posting it off to be registered.

It really does not matter how long it takes to register unless you are desperate to use it to control the bank account or sell the house.

Try to get it signed today. “Tomorrow” could be too late.

Clive
 

Stephen Hants

Registered User
Jan 2, 2007
80
hampshire
In my case I completed the LPA after the diagnosis. There is a section in the LPA that requires a third party to confirm that the donor understands what they are doing in signing the LPA. Having an AZ diagnosis does not mean that you are incapable of making decisions. I asked the Social Worker to assess and sign which they did. I didn't use a solicitor either. Registering the LPA took a few weeks. Whether or not you have a diagnosis I think you will still need to have someone sign that the donor undertstands what they are doing though I believe this could be a friend of over five years.
 

sue38

Registered User
Mar 6, 2007
10,854
51
Wigan, Lancs
Lisa,

You will need one, or possibly two depending on the circumstances, Cerificate Providers to say that that your mum is mentally capable of granting an LPA.

The following is the advice we follow and I think is an extract from the OPG guidance:-

Understanding mental capacity
A formal test of mental capacity is not necessary in order to provide a Certificate. However, it is important that you are satisfied that, in your opinion, the Donor understands the LPA they are making, has the mental capacity to make it and that they are not being forced into making it.
It is important that you think about the questions you will need to ask the Donor to establish their capacity and understanding. You may want to consider asking the Donor the following open questions. You may want to keep a record of the questions you asked and the responses the Donor gave, on a separate sheet for your own records.
1. Understand the LPA and the powers they are giving:
• What is an LPA?


• Why do you want to make an LPA?


• Who are you appointing as your Attorney?


• Why have you chosen to appoint x as your Attorney?


• What powers are you giving your Attorney(s)?
2. Have you been put under pressure to make the LPA:

• Has the Attorney given you the answers to certain questions (like those listed above)?


• Do you have any reason to believe that the Attorney is not trustworthy?

3. Are aware of any other reasons why the LPA should not be created.


You will also need to ask questions that are specific to the person and the LPA in front of you. You may want to prepare a checklist to help you with this.
This list is not a formal test of capacity and is only provided as a guide to the types of questions you may want to ask to help you when forming your opinion as to whether or not the Donor understands the LPA and if he or she has been pressured into making it.


Just to clarify, the LPA should be drawn up by while a person is still mentally capable & registered with the Public guardian Office when they are not.
The LPA cannot be used unless it has been registered, whether the donor lacks mental capacity or not. LPA's are not just for people who may go on to lack mental capacity. They could be used if a physical infirmity meant you were unable to deal with your affairs. An 'ordinary' Power of Attorney is automatically revoked if the donor goes on to lose mental capacity, but an LPA 'lasts' - hence the name.
 

Lisa M 99

Registered User
Feb 12, 2009
247
Winchester
Thanks for all that Sue, that's brill. Silly question, but can I send off the forms for applying AND registering at the same time? I know that they are 2 different forms that you can download from OPG but can you send them off together or do you have to apply, wait a bit then register? (I know that registering only happens when you need to use it)
 

sue38

Registered User
Mar 6, 2007
10,854
51
Wigan, Lancs
Hi Lisa,

If you go to this page you will find the pack for both the Property and Affairs LPA, and the Personal Welfare LPA.

http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/forms/Making-an-LPA.htm

Once you have have the LPA prepared and signed, then can you look at registering it, but you can register it at any time after your mum has signed it. As long as she has the mental capacity to understand at the time she signs the LPA it won't affect its validity if she deteriorates before you get it registered.

This is the page where you will find the registration pack.

http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/forms/registering-lpa-epa.htm
 

Stephen Hants

Registered User
Jan 2, 2007
80
hampshire
Lisa - If I understand the question correctly - you can download or send for all the forms from the OPG. I understand packs are also available from WH Smith. You then complete the LPA about twenty odd pages with all the signatures. You then send this with the form to register and a fee exemption if that applies all in the same envelope under registered post. They will check the form and register it and return it stamped so you can show it to the bank etc to set up any power of attorney you need. If you make a mistake on the LPA it all gets sent back and you have to start again so check it very carefully. There are instructions on helping fill it in
 

Lisa M 99

Registered User
Feb 12, 2009
247
Winchester
Thanks Stephen, that's really clear advice. I am filling out the forms today, so I will just make sure that I put all in one envelope (if they will fit!) Thanks.
 

Stephen Hants

Registered User
Jan 2, 2007
80
hampshire
Most of my advice comes from experience - I missed a tick box in the first application and the actual registration form:)and being 150 miles away made the the whole process a little longer than it should have taken.
 

Ashburton

Registered User
Feb 19, 2007
99
Can I ask, are you legally obliged to apply for an LPA? I'm :eek: to say I had never heard of an LPA until I saw it on this board. I have always lived with my mum and am her full time carer. We have a joint bank account that has an either or signature and the funds in the account when opened were 50% mine and 50% my mums.

Our spending has been roughly equal. I am now however keeping all receipts for everything that is spent and have also set up an excel spreadsheet showing in detail what money has been spent on,I fill this in daily for my own comfort and ease of mind, though wish I had started this earlier. Our electricity bills and phone bills,heating bills are in my name, were in my dads name before he passed away a number of years ago and our house insurance although in my mums name, the insurance company added my name to the account when my dad died to deal with payments etc. I also pay half of this.

We also have joint investments for a number of years, that have never been touched and also have an either or signature,again these funds are 50% each, and my mums 50% share is more than sufficient to pay for a nursing home for the long term if my mum has to go into one at some stage.

My mum does have her own savings account(non bank) which she only has access to but she will never require the funds from this account,she did receive a cheque recently but I was able to lodge this into her account by post.She also has another smaller bank account which again does not need to be accessed. With this in mind, my mum is in the late stages of Alzheimer's and we wouldn't be able to apply for an LPA as she would not know at this stage what an LPA is. So I'm wondering am I obliged to apply for one? And if so am I in trouble for not doing so earlier.
Tks
 
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ElaineMaul

Registered User
Jan 29, 2005
333
60
Hi,
In a similar vein, can I ask a dumb question?

What practical benefits does an LPA bring? I got my Dad (and Mum ..... doing both made it easier for my Dad to accept!) to sign an EPA in 2005, just after he was first diagnosed. I am in the process of registering the EPA for my Dad; think we're just coming to the end of their 5 week waiting period, so might just get it in a few more weeks.

However, the LPA ..... covers personal / health care? It only 'came out' last year, didn't it? I don't think anyone would say that my Dad would really understand; he has his lucid moments but anyone would easily contest his ability to understand it. However, for the silly question ...... what benefits does it bring?

In my naivete, I had assumed that, since he can't really give any informed consent for treatment, any decisions on his care would be passed to his next of kin ..... my Mum. Is this not true? If it's not, does this mean that 'they' (the nhs, ss or other similiar little green men ...... sorry, sarcasm is lowest form of wit but that's how they seem to be at times) can make decisions about him without reference to us?

If an LPA of some sort is advisable to make sure things are done with reference to us, can you apply to the public guardianship office to assume these powers? This is probably expensive, so would only want to do if it was worthwhile.

Sorry for hijaking thread, but thought the answer to my query might also help Lisa.
Elaine
 

Clive

Registered User
Nov 7, 2004
716
Hi

I am sure you are not in trouble for not having a LPA, however you may find later that you unexpectedly need to be able to act for your mum quickly in a financial capacity.

Two simple examples.

You find that the account you have at the Building Society no longer pays any interest and you want to open another in your joint names. You need a LPA to do this.


The time I found I really did need registered Power of Attorney was when I came to sell mum’s house. The solicitor would not do anything without seeing the registered Power of Attorney… and the buyer wanted to exchange without delay (or would walk away).

You might not think you will want to sell the house.. but things can change very rapidly.

Hope this is of help in making up your mind what to do.

Best wishes

Clive



PS. Sorry I cannot help with the welfare one… however the NHS did demand to see my EPA before they would talk to me about NHS Continuing Health Care.
 

WelshJeannie

Registered User
Feb 27, 2009
69
N Wales
Just to add my two pennyworth of experience. I haven't got LPA for either of my parents and I'm having to go for Court of Protection. It is costly (and will continue to be costly). I have been told it will take a minimum of 21 weeks and in the meantime most people will not deal with me because I haven't got LPA. My dad has bonds which have stopped paying interest and I can't move them. My mum has won (small amounts) on premium bonds - I can't pay them in to her account. Debts are mounting up because I can't pay bills. I can't access information or funds. The first question everyone asks me when I ring them about financial matters is 'Have you got POA'? I wish I had.
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,448
Just to clarify - your mother Asburton, would not longer be competent to set up an LPA? Under the circumstances as you describe them and with the proviso's that Clive mentions it probably isn't worth your while to now apply to the Court of Protection.

Elaine - the rules about who make's decisions for people who aren't able to make decisions for themselves is one of the reasons the welfare LPA was produced. Mostly, I think, the system works as you would expect it to - the closest relatives are consulted about treatment and things like where the person will live whether there is an LPA or not. In fact, even with an LPA doctors have a duty to do the best for their patient - they wouldn't allow someone holding an LPA to reject basic medical care.

I think where the LPA comes into its own is where there may be a difference of opinion among family members (particularly siblings if there is no spouse) or where the person tasked to make these decisions is not a close blood relative.

I also have to say that in your situation it's probably academic - if you've sent of the EPA for registration, he almost certainly isn't competent to draw up a LPA anyway. I suppose you could say that the welfare LPA is for worst case scenarios that mostly people will not encounter, but a vital piece of paper should that worst case occur. I suspect that this is the reason for the "emergency application" option on the public guardianship site - to make medical decisions that are urgent and not covered.
 

margaret101

Registered User
Jul 17, 2008
56
clacton on sea
I hold POA for my husband but i have never registered it as I have never found any broblens with eusing it should I register it the house is in both names Maryaret
 

Clive

Registered User
Nov 7, 2004
716
Hi

In my experience you would need to show the solicitor a registered power of attorney before selling your husbands half of the house (though this may be for the protection of the solicitor as much as for the protection of your husband).

Realistically, in almost every case, you would know you were intending to sell your house several weeks before you put it on the market. This would give most people plenty of time to get the Power of Attorney registered.

I am just giving you my experience… which was that the first prospective house buyer walked away because of a very slight delay in producing the document...and the next buyer would only pay a reduced price !

So don’t worry if you don’t expect to sell your house this year.

Clive
 

Ashburton

Registered User
Feb 19, 2007
99
Thank you all for your replies :) it puts my mind at ease. I had honestly never heard of things like POA's etc...until I saw them mentioned here, when my mum was originally diagnosed no one ever mentioned things like POA's and my dad died a few weeks after my mum was diagnosed so it was a very difficult time and the joint account thing has worked for us, although I wish I had kept an account of what we spent over the years, though starting last January I am now keeping a very detailed account with receipts and while I know it is not essentially necessary to do,I can recommend it to everyone, it offers peace of mind that our expenses are split evenly.