Advice on financial matters

Discussion in 'Legal and financial issues' started by Rubi, Mar 9, 2018.

  1. Rubi

    Rubi Registered User

    Apr 21, 2017
    40
    i hold EPA for my gran for financial matters. No health & care POA available here in N. Ireland. Both sons live outside country. One son insists on taking gran to his home in England 4-6 times per year. Aside from the fact this causes her great distress, it is causing me a bit of a headache in terms of managing her money whilst she is away. Bank has cancelled all her access to money due to registration of EPA. Ordinarily son was withdrawing cash to reimburse himself for her flights and his flights. (He flies over to collect her) I didn’t challenge this as at the time I believed gran still had capacity. Now EPA is registered how do I decide if she should be paying for flights? Each visit amounts to circa £500 as she is paying for dinners with family, shopping (?) from supermarkets etc. She is in receipt of a state pension plus attendance allowance so she isn’t exactly well off but I have a considerable amount in her savings. When I told son she didn’t have access to her banking any longer he is now refusing to respond to me. Should gran be paying for these trips? She’s happy enough to go but I’m not convinced she’s aware of the financial implications l. Please advise as I’m at my wits end!!
     
  2. Louise7

    Louise7 Registered User

    Mar 25, 2016
    1,154
    Is he still insisting that your Gran goes for a visit though? If not, than presumably that solves the problem of how to deal with her money when she is away.

    In a thread you posted last year you said that she ends up in hospital every time she travels to visit her son, and you say that the trips cause her distress. Can her doctor confirm that travelling would be detrimental to her health?
     
  3. Rubi

    Rubi Registered User

    Apr 21, 2017
    40
    I had to involve social services last year because he booked a one way ticket for her. When they intervened they asked her wishes, she said she is happy to go for a week etc so as no health & care POA here then I cannot stop him taking her. He takes her 4-6 times per year and despite me telling him it’s detrimental to her well being. I’ve asked him to stay with her in her own home but he won’t listen. Now EPA is registered I’m struggling to understand where I go with the financial side of things given she no longer has access to her accounts. GP did agree trips were detrimental but unwilling to put anything in writing unfortunately. Thank you for your reply :)
     
  4. Louise7

    Louise7 Registered User

    Mar 25, 2016
    1,154
    I don't know about the EPA process in N.Ireland but have you contacted the agency that issued the EPA for their advice? (the OPG or equivalent)
     
  5. Rubi

    Rubi Registered User

    Apr 21, 2017
    40
    Yes I think this may be the best way forward. I just want to keep myself & my gran right. If she’s happy to go I know I can’t stop her but at the same time I don’t believe she’s aware she’s funding the trips and her son basically has had access to her accounts by taking her bank card. Obviously now her bank card won’t work so it’s whether I reimburse him from her account.
     
  6. Jessbow

    Jessbow Registered User

    Her son..... Your Uncle? Is your dad involved? What does he think?
    If she actually enjoys these trips, a week or so away 3 or 4 times a year, Honestly, I am not sure £500 is excessive.

    May suggest its limited to 3 times a year.

    No one should be using her bank card, except her.
     
  7. Rubi

    Rubi Registered User

    Apr 21, 2017
    40
    It’s 2 weeks at a time, 4-6 times per year. It’s very unsettling for her and on every occasion she’s there she’s ringing me asking to come home. She likes the idea of going but when she’s actually there she just wants her own familiarities. It’s very distressing for her and for me here getting the constant phone calls.

    I agree that no one should be using her bank card but my uncle takes it off her once he arrives to get her and she doesn’t get it back. I can see the purchases and money withdrawals on the online banking.

    Now she has no bank card as bank have cancelled hers so it’s only my card (it’s a joint account). Therein lies my dilemma. Do I give him cash? As mentioned above he is not happy her card has been cancelled and will no longer respond to me. My dad is aware, believes she shouldn’t be going from a medical view point, has told uncle this but we haven’t been able to stop him taking her.
     
  8. concerned4

    concerned4 Registered User

    Jun 3, 2012
    51
    As POA you should hopefully be keeping receipts etc for expenditure for any monies taken out of your gran's account as at some point in a the future there may be a situation where money that has gone out of the account has to be checked, I would keep a ledger to keep yourself right.
     
  9. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    18,926
    Male
    North Manchester
    Is there an equivalent of a Best Interests Meeting in N.I.?
    These meetings are designed to replicate the decision a person lacking capacity would have made if they had capacity.
    Does your gran have capacity to decide whether or not to travel to England against medical advice?
    With capacity would she travel against medical advice?
     
  10. nicoise

    nicoise Registered User

    Jun 29, 2010
    1,807
    Whilst she may be declining and not handling her money herself any longer, it sounds as though (despite her calls to you) she is still coping with the travelling and different surroundings quite well. And that she is a welcome visitor.

    It may be that if she declines further physically, such as with continence, becomes difficult in her mood, unable to cope with everyday things for herself, or indeed the lack of access to her cash due to no bank card, that her son won’t be so keen to have her visit like this.

    I can tell you are worried, but unless you have any concrete evidence that the trips are causing her problems it might well be difficult to stop them on the grounds of not wanting to spend her money on herself, plus a little extra for treats and food. It seems also from what you say that he is determined to continue without discussion. A difficult situation on several levels.

    It may be that changing circumstances such as a health crisis outside your control will become the deciding factor.
     
  11. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    18,926
    Male
    North Manchester
    Not so sure about that

    My bold font.
     
  12. nicoise

    nicoise Registered User

    Jun 29, 2010
    1,807
    Sorry, I was responding to the outline given in the above posts, which were asking about funding and access to Gran’s money.

    What happens on the trips that she ends up in hospital afterwards? Do these health issues not present themselves whilst she is with the uncle/son and his family, or are they unaware of them?
     
  13. Rubi

    Rubi Registered User

    Apr 21, 2017
    40
    Sorry just caught up here. Yes there is a physical element to her distress which has led to collapse. I have had her assessed at Home after being advised by her son she had been taken to hospital on 3 occasions. Consultant diagnosed her with orthostatic hypertension, although he didn’t say the trips caused the collapses per de, he did hint that at times of stress/confusion she would react differently than at home, possibly causing the falls. She has had only one fall at home (carer woke her up and she jumped up too quickly) but this was after the diagnosis and the three previous incidents with uncle.

    I’ve advised him of the deterioration in her mental health before/during and after these trips. I had the Adult Safeguarding intervene as he refused to book her a flight home. Yes unfortunately there is a lot more to thus situation but given I cannot stop him taking her there, I am just not 100% satisfied that in my role of Attorney that he should have an unchecked access to her monies which was the norm on previous visits. This next trip (next week) is the first since EPA was lodged hence my concern about how to handle he finances whilst she wasn’t here. I went today and gave her £100. I’ll give her more tomorrow, I just don’t know how much is reasonable as son expects his flights to be reimbursed so it’s 6 flights.
     
  14. DeMartin

    DeMartin Registered User

    Jul 4, 2017
    711
    Kent
    Don’t follow 6 flights. Your mum to England and back ==2flights. Sons flights maybe = 2.
     
  15. Rubi

    Rubi Registered User

    Apr 21, 2017
    40
    He flies here to get her, they both fly to England, both fly back here then he flies back to England. This is the first time he has returned with her, he normally just leaves her at the gate & I collect her.
     
  16. Beate

    Beate Registered User

    May 21, 2014
    11,696
    Female
    London
    I'm honestly puzzled why you don't just refuse to reimburse the flight money and give her spending money. You are aware that these visits are detrimental for her well-being, and as attorney handle her finances. So act accordingly and advise the son that his access to her money has closed and that if he wants her to visit he'll have to pay for it himself. I bet he won't!
     
  17. Rubi

    Rubi Registered User

    Apr 21, 2017
    40
    Thank you. This is the first occasion I have been in this position as EPA only registered last month. I just don’t want to be seen as driving a wedge between them. If I refuse to fund her trips then essentially I am refusing him having a relationship with her in his own home which is clearly important to him. I don’t want to use the EPA as a means to stop the trips because I personally believe they cause distress to her but unfortunately that’s the way it will come across. He knows I disprove of the trips as I’ve told him on so many occasions but now EPA is registered he’ll think I’m just using the financial side of things to cease them once & for all. Aaaagh it’s difficult!!!
     
  18. Beate

    Beate Registered User

    May 21, 2014
    11,696
    Female
    London
    You're not refusing him a relationship with her. He can come and visit her in her own home. If he doesn't want to do that, that's his decision. You need to develop a bit of backbone here and do what an attorney needs to do, and that is act in the donor's best interests. Why should she finance trips that are not good for her? At the moment you're just letting him play you. If any of my OH's adult children had ever told me they wanted to visit him or have him visit them but that I'd have to stump up for a train ticket, I would have told them where to go.
     
  19. Rubi

    Rubi Registered User

    Apr 21, 2017
    40
    That’s a great response thank you. This man is very condescending and difficult to deal with which has come to the fore in the past 12 months. When I had issues last year and had social services intervene, they told me they had noted her wishes which was the best that can be done in NI in terms of health and care wishes as no H&C POA. She told them at the time she was happy to visit him for a week or so here & there. There is nothing I can do to stop the visits bar withholding HER money which is why it personally doesn’t sit 100% right with me. As I haven’t heard from him since he has failed to respond to my last email which advised him her bank has cancelled her cards, I will give her a couple of hundred pounds for spending money for the two weeks and if he wishes to seek financial compensation for his flights etc then I will need to seek some sort of legal advice. As I said to other family members, it is up to me now to account for every penny of hers so as much as it pains me to cause issues within the family, you are right and I need to step up for her. Thank you.
     
  20. nitram

    nitram Registered User

    Apr 6, 2011
    18,926
    Male
    North Manchester
    Regard any money you give her as 'holiday money' to be spent on enjoying herself with maybe a token gift to her host.
    Only pay for her flights, register her with the airline for 'special assistance' at both airports and make sure she is both taken to the airports, 'handed over' at check in and met on arrival.

    Think carefully about:

    Your holding the purse strings may change things.
     

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