• All threads and posts regarding Coronavirus COVID-19 can now be found in our new area specifically for Coronavirus COVID-19 discussion.

    You can directly access this area >here<.

Advice Needed Please (Care home funding)

derek50

New member
May 15, 2020
9
It is coming to the point where my father will be needing a care home imminently due to his diagnosis of dementia. At the moment myself my mum and dad live together in the property. The property is set up as joint tenants with both my parents names.

From my understanding there will be a mandatory disregard on the property whilst my mum still lives there. However if my mum dies first the complete value of the property switches to my father and this will be used to pay all fees and the children will be left with nothing.

My mum has spoken to a solicitor and was advised to severe the tenancy and move to tenants in common. Will the local authority treat this as 'deprivation of assets'? If so we are best to sell the property now then risk losing it all?

Under tenants in common if my dad dies first is the debt written off under either tenancy arrangement? If mum dies first then my dads 50% of the property will be used to pay for fees?


If my dad dies then mum dies a year later can the authority take the complete property?

Does anyone have a recommendation for a good solicitor for these type of questions?

Thank you
 

Jessbow

Registered User
Mar 1, 2013
3,015
West Hertfordshire
Changing anything to avoid paying care home fees is potentially Deprivation of Assets.

if my mum dies first the complete value of the property switches to my father and this will be used to pay all fees and the children will be left with nothing. Yes that is usually the case

Under tenants in common if my dad dies first is the debt written off under either tenancy arrangement?

If mum dies first then my dads 50% of the property will be used to pay for fees?
Yes
 

kindred

Registered User
Apr 8, 2018
2,414
It is coming to the point where my father will be needing a care home imminently due to his diagnosis of dementia. At the moment myself my mum and dad live together in the property. The property is set up as joint tenants with both my parents names.

From my understanding there will be a mandatory disregard on the property whilst my mum still lives there. However if my mum dies first the complete value of the property switches to my father and this will be used to pay all fees and the children will be left with nothing.

My mum has spoken to a solicitor and was advised to severe the tenancy and move to tenants in common. Will the local authority treat this as 'deprivation of assets'? If so we are best to sell the property now then risk losing it all?

Under tenants in common if my dad dies first is the debt written off under either tenancy arrangement? If mum dies first then my dads 50% of the property will be used to pay for fees?


If my dad dies then mum dies a year later can the authority take the complete property?

Does anyone have a recommendation for a good solicitor for these type of questions?

Thank you
It all seems to depend on what was done before and what was done after the diagnosis. In my case the diagnosis date was the crucial thing.
warmest, kindred
 

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
12,259
South coast
If your dad dies first, then no-one will come looking for the fees, whether the property is owned jointly, or as tenants in common.

Switching to owning the property as tenants in common combined with your mum leaving her half of the property to her children, should not, in theory, be seen as deprivation of assets as your mums half of the house was never his and your mum can leave her half to whoever she chooses, but there have been reports of some LAs disputing this.
And does your father have capacity to consent to the change?
He doesnt have to - his wife can serve the severance.
 

derek50

New member
May 15, 2020
9
It all seems to depend on what was done before and what was done after the diagnosis. In my case the diagnosis date was the crucial thing.


warmest, kindred
This would be post diagnosis. I should add that they are actually divorced but carried on living with each other for the sake of the children. As my dad had gambling issues my mum believed the divorce would protect her half, however the solicitor said that as the tenancy wasn't changed it does nothing.

And does your father have capacity to consent to the change?
Afraid he doesn't as he can't retain information for more then an hour.

If your dad dies first, then no-one will come looking for the fees, whether the property is owned jointly, or as tenants in common.



Switching to owning the property as tenants in common combined with your mum leaving her half of the property to her children, should not, in theory, be seen as deprivation of assets as your mums half of the house was never his and your mum can leave her half to whoever she chooses, but there have been reports of some LAs disputing this.



He doesnt have to - his wife can serve the severance.
Thanks, I hope the LA see it this way. We plan to inform them after we do this and see what they say. I want this potential dispute sorted whilst my mum is alive.

If they do dispute the only other option for us is to sell up as my mum doesn't want to live knowing if she dies first that all the children get nothing.

Thanks for the help all :)
 
Last edited:

Banjomansmate

Registered User
Jan 13, 2019
1,775
Dorset
Might it depend on their divorce settlement? If their assets were split 50/50 then I would think that would include the house? If so then surely your Mum can leave her half to whoever she wants and making that legal as tenants in common can hardly be considered as deprivation of assets.
 

derek50

New member
May 15, 2020
9
If your dad dies first, then no-one will come looking for the fees, whether the property is owned jointly, or as tenants in common.
I have just been told by the LA that this isn't the case :(. Does this rule vary by LA?
 

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
12,259
South coast
Does this rule vary by LA?
No, it should be the same everywhere.
All the while your mum is living in the house the house will be disregarded from being part of your dads assets. When he dies - assuming that your mum is still living in the house - no-one will come looking to sell the house for fees. This is the same whether they both own the house jointly or as tenents in common.

If your mum also has to go into a care home, leaves the house, or dies then it is included in the assets again.

Perhaps there was a misunderstanding
 

derek50

New member
May 15, 2020
9
No, it should be the same everywhere.
All the while your mum is living in the house the house will be disregarded from being part of your dads assets. When he dies - assuming that your mum is still living in the house - no-one will come looking to sell the house for fees. This is the same whether they both own the house jointly or as tenents in common.

If your mum also has to go into a care home, leaves the house, or dies then it is included in the assets again.

Perhaps there was a misunderstanding
Thanks for the info been much appreciated. Maybe I miss understood, I thought if my dad dies first the debt was written off. So in the event my dad dies first then my mum a few years later. Mums share is handed to the children. If the house is then sold the council will want dads half? Can they force the children to sell?
 
Last edited:

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
12,259
South coast
So in the event my dad dies first then my mum a few years later. Mums share is handed to the children. If the house is then sold the council will want dads half?
No. If your dad dies while your mum is still living in the house (so the house is disregarded) the LA will not come looking for the fees to be repaid.

This is the same whether the house is owned jointly, or as tenets in common.
 

Louise7

Registered User
Mar 25, 2016
2,047
No, it should be the same everywhere. All the while your mum is living in the house the house will be disregarded from being part of your dads assets. When he dies - assuming that your mum is still living in the house - no-one will come looking to sell the house for fees.
I have just been told by the LA that this isn't the case :(. Does this rule vary by LA?
Although your parents have been living in the same house, it appears that a mandatory disregard doesn't apply if the couple are divorced (my bold):

22.Where an adult goes into a care home any property they own will be taken into account in the financial assessment for charging for care and support unless it is subject to a disregard. Subject to certain conditions, from April 2015 a property must be disregarded where it is occupied as their main or only home by one of the following: a. the adult’s partner, civil partner or former partner (except where the adult is estranged or divorced from the partner, b. a lone parent who is the adult’s estranged or divorced partner with a child that is under 18, c. a relative or family member of the adult who: i. is aged 60 or over, or ii. is a child of the adult aged under 18, or iii. is incapacitated.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...latives_Property_Disregard_Guidance_final.pdf

It could be that as your parents are divorced the local authority will treat 50% of the value of the house as your dad's asset. They might agree to a deferred payment agreement against his half of the property which would mean that a charge is placed on the property and the local authority pay his care home fees but the 'debt' would have to be repaid when he died.

@derek50 It's a bit confusing but as your dad isn't actually in a care home yet what did you ask the local authority and what exactly did they say? If you can provide a bit more information it may be easier to work out what is going on.
 

derek50

New member
May 15, 2020
9
@derek50 It's a bit confusing but as your dad isn't actually in a care home yet what did you ask the local authority and what exactly did they say? If you can provide a bit more information it may be easier to work out what is going on.
I have been told even though they are divorced they will apply the disregard as she is still living in the property

Say my mum sold the house in say 4 years time and dads share worked out at 100k. If say his total care fees up to that point were 200k would the family be forced to make up the difference?

Thanks again all
 
Last edited:

canary

Registered User
Feb 25, 2014
12,259
South coast
If the house is disregarded then the LA will only look at his savings and other assets. If this comes to under £25,000 then the LA will start paying towards his care home fees. Once the saving go below £16,000 the LA will then be paying their maximum (it varies from LA to LA). If then, at a later stage, your dad comes into money because your mum is no longer living in the house (either because she has moved out, or because she has died) he will then become self-funded from that date. The LA will not seek to apply the self-funding before this date - they will not be looking back at what happened before this date.

These are the general rules for everyone. The only time that this might vary is if the LA decided at the beginning that the house would not be disregarded. If its not disregarded, then it is still considered to be part of his assets and then, the only way to avoid selling the house is to go for deferred payment. In this case the fees would have to be paid eventually once the house is sold, which might be once he dies.

Im thinking that somewhere there is confusion between disregard and deferred payment. Who said the house would be disregarded and who has said that the LA would want the fees paid after the house was sold?
 

Louise7

Registered User
Mar 25, 2016
2,047
I have been told even though they are divorced they will apply the disregard as she is still living in the property

Say my mum sold the house in say 4 years time and dads share worked out at 100k. If say his total care fees up to that point were 200k would the family be forced to make up the difference?
If the local authority have agreed to disregard the value of the house whilst your mum is living there then no-one will be asked to pay back his care whilst your mum is living there. If at a later date your mum & dad sold their house and split the proceeds then your dad's half can pay for his future care but he wouldn't be asked to pay for the care that had already been paid for by the local authority, neither would the family.

Im thinking that somewhere there is confusion between disregard and deferred payment. Who said the house would be disregarded and who has said that the LA would want the fees paid after the house was sold?
My post crossed with @canary but I agree that you seem confused - where have you got the idea from that the care fees would need to be paid back when the house is sold? That would only happen in the case of a deferred payment being agreed, which isn't applicable here.
 

derek50

New member
May 15, 2020
9
Thanks Canary and Louise, I was under the impression things got back dated.


Who said the house would be disregarded and who has said that the LA would want the fees paid after the house was sold?
The LA told me it would be disregarded. I was also told by them that if my dad were to die first then mum a few years later they would then take the property into account after her death. This is what got me confused. But from what you have said under that circumstance and the fact that things are not back dated they couldn't touch the house?
 

Louise7

Registered User
Mar 25, 2016
2,047
Yes, that's right. Who was it from the local authority who told you this - was it a social worker? If so, they have nothing to do with the financial side of things and it's common for them to give out incorrect information.
 

derek50

New member
May 15, 2020
9
Yes, that's right. Who was it from the local authority who told you this - was it a social worker? If so, they have nothing to do with the financial side of things and it's common for them to give out incorrect information.
Someone from the financial assessment team.
 
Last edited:

Staff online

Forum statistics

Threads
114,495
Messages
1,675,005
Members
65,534
Latest member
Pusskins