Abuse

Wolfsgirl

Registered User
Oct 18, 2012
1,028
Nr Heathrow, Mum has AD & VD
This is the worst and saddest thing I have ever read here!

I imagined my own poor father in that situation and feel heartbroken on his behalf and outraged for you.

I hope by now you have reported this abuse and he is being protected.

Please let us know of the outcome which I hope will be a good one.

Sharon x
Firstly thank you so much for all of your responses to a complete stranger, the kindness of this portal never ceases to amaze me. I have felt so alone in this quest for a good placement for my dad. His behaviour has changed recently as he is going through bereavement, his dad died (my grandad) which complicates dementia massively. The staff at the care home know this but have failed to respond appropriately and even mocked him when he cried.

I think extra information would help responses, so here goes:

- this did happen and I managed to get a recording capturing the abuse.
- it's a care home owned by a private provider.

We just want to get him in a suitable place but I am prepared to bring this house of cards down, I am very angry with the local authority as I see these as the guardian angels, we have raised concerns twice and they have failed to see our concerns twice reporting no need to intervene. They do not know about this footage that I have caught yet, I want to go as high up as possible and bypass any bureaucracy. I want to name and shame the individuals who spoke to my dad in the way that they did and talked about sexual references about my mother to aggravate him. Are there people who take on cases like this, I am recovering from a brain haemorrhage and feel that I might not have the energy or cognitive capacity to cope with such a thing. We have had a awful year and are in desperate need of help but feel that we have suitable evidence to take this to the next level.

Thanks again.


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ASH74

Registered User
May 18, 2014
294
How awful, my mother also suffered from abuse, although more neglect, I think in your situation I would contact the police, CQC and safeguarding would help but I've found that they try and keep anything bad from becoming public,
Similar experience of the CQC Hence saying they are toothless ........but I still spoke to the inspector through the process......if you are not happy with the outcome from a safeguarding investigation you can complain to the local government ombudsman.


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Sue J

Registered User
Dec 9, 2009
8,035
I have just tonight watched the news and they showed film of a carer abusing a 92 year old which the family filmed, at a home in London,the carer was sent to prison.

This is terrible :(:mad:
 

Chris-G

Registered User
Jul 11, 2014
105
Bl**dy disgusting.

It is interesting to see so many references to the Adult Care dept at the council.

Try this one:-

My mum was prescribed drug A. Then it was observed to harm her.
She was prescribed the slightly more expensive drug B for about a year.

Then the new CCG's took over in April 2013. Their GP's were warned by the BMA not to change prescriptions for patients (May 2013), for cost reasons.

Mum's GP's put her back on the cheap and harmful drug A. Did not tell us. Nor did her DE Nursing Home.

We noticed an increased and rapid cognitive decline. Three months later we noticed lots of other worsening symptoms.

Then I questioned the home regarding the drugs regimen. (Symptoms reminded me of drug A).
Upon the discovery, they of course insisted that they had done nothing wrong because (even whilst knowing her drug history), they had only given mum the drugs that the GP had prescribed.
The Nuremburg defence ("I was only obeying orders"), was not allowed in 1945. It is foolish to try to use it now.

We spoke to the GP's. They could not account for the change back to the harmful drug A. They would not change it back to Drug B either.

The CPN and her Consultant became involved again and they said it was wrong and should not have happened.

The GP's dismissed us with comments like "well if all you are going to do is complain then this meeting is at an end". We were very calm and polite... all we wanted, was the drug changed back to drug B.
It seems that to have done so would have been an admission of fault.....

Sorry a bit long.... Here's the point. Adult safeguarding director got my call via customer services and only a partial story, I requested a call back re the GPs and the fact that it was an adult safeguarding issue.

What did she do? Without further reference to me, she had the home investigated.

Not that I care, but they told the home who had asked them to investigate them too.

Later, after telling her of her mistake at the home, the Director of Adult Care refused to deal with the GPs or assist us in getting the harmful drugs stopped. Even having been made aware that someone in her care was actually being slowly and provably (from past analysis), poisoned.

I have so little faith in any of these people anymore.
 
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Lindy50

Registered User
Dec 11, 2013
5,239
Cotswolds
I am very sorry you had such a bad experience Chris-G :mad:

I regret to say that some of the people holding these positions are just not very bright. I can imagine the Director thinking something along the lines of...."hmmm.....medication.....health remit......not mine.......better look as though I'm doing something though.....I know, let's investigate the home".....and that's without waiting to hear the full story from you.

First rule in my view, if you can't help, at least strive to do no harm.

I hope things have improved in your situation.

Sorry again for what happened :(

Lindy xx
 

Kevinl

Registered User
Aug 24, 2013
4,774
Salford
In that situation what you witnessed was a crime being committed so the police. No messing about with the CQC, it's a criminal matter just phone 101 and report it to the police.
K
 

BLONDY

Registered User
Oct 29, 2011
79
2000 MILES AWAY
Hypothetically, what should a relative do if they find themselves in this situation:

Dad is in the advanced stages of dementia living in a DE ward, he gets angry as he mistakes help as a threat.

Two care workers do the following in a room alone with him:
- make fun of his genitals
- Threaten to hit him
- Make sexual references to his wife
- Make fun of him when he cries

If I overheard this what should I do? At what level do you go in it? Is this care quality commission, police, media, social services? What could you expect if the 'whistle is blown' and what is the most appropriate course of action.


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Have you considered what happens when no one is there to be a witness. Everyone has offered advice but only you know where this is happening only you can make the call. Keep a diary of events. Please don't let this poor man suffer any longer.
 

stanleypj

Registered User
Dec 8, 2011
10,707
North West
I agree with everyone else that this is utterly appalling. I also find the case Chris-G describes extremely disturbing. As someone else has suggested, every time you read about something like this you wonder about how many other people are suffering because they have no-one to look out for them.

I hope redsquirrel and Chris-G will continue to chase these evil people down and will keep us posted.

Very sadly, stories like these are so shocking that they tend to outweigh every instance of care homes, doctors and other professionals doing their jobs thoughtfully and with real care. So such behaviour is not simply tragic for the individual concerned.
 

Wirralson

Account Closed
May 30, 2012
658
Bl**dy disgusting.

It is interesting to see so many references to the Adult Care dept at the council.

Try this one:-

My mum was prescribed drug A. Then it was observed to harm her.
She was prescribed the slightly more expensive drug B for about a year.

Then the new CCG's took over in April 2013. Their GP's were warned by the BMA not to change prescriptions for patients (May 2013), for cost reasons.

Mum's GP's put her back on the cheap and harmful drug A. Did not tell us. Nor did her DE Nursing Home.

We noticed an increased and rapid cognitive decline. Three months later we noticed lots of other worsening symptoms.

Then I questioned the home regarding the drugs regimen. (Symptoms reminded me of drug A).
Upon the discovery, they of course insisted that they had done nothing wrong because (even whilst knowing her drug history), they had only given mum the drugs that the GP had prescribed.
The Nuremburg defence ("I was only obeying orders"), was not allowed in 1945. It is foolish to try to use it now.

We spoke to the GP's. They could not account for the change back to the harmful drug A. They would not change it back to Drug B either.

The CPN and her Consultant became involved again and they said it was wrong and should not have happened.

The GP's dismissed us with comments like "well if all you are going to do is complain then this meeting is at an end". We were very calm and polite... all we wanted, was the drug changed back to drug B.
It seems that to have done so would have been an admission of fault.....

Sorry a bit long.... Here's the point. Adult safeguarding director got my call via customer services and only a partial story, I requested a call back re the GPs and the fact that it was an adult safeguarding issue.

What did she do? Without further reference to me, she had the home investigated.

Not that I care, but they told the home who had asked them to investigate them too.

Later, after telling her of her mistake at the home, the Director of Adult Care refused to deal with the GPs or assist us in getting the harmful drugs stopped. Even having been made aware that someone in her care was actually being slowly and provably (from past analysis), poisoned.

I have so little faith in any of these people anymore.
Disclosing the identity of a complainant is a bit of a problem in Data Protection Terms. Unless you specifically requested it was withheld, a person (including a company) being investigated is usually entitled to know the identity of the complainant - and as it's your relative they could make a pretty good guess. You raised a safeguarding issue and that automatically triggers an investigation of some kind - exactly what kind depends on the issue.

W
 

Dazzaman

Registered User
Dec 3, 2012
32
Outnumbered

To make this horrific situation even worse, if the carers involved deny anything happened (and assuming there is no covert CCTV) then anyone making the complaint will be summarily ignored on the basis that two-versus-one will only ever have one outcome. I had a similar case with my mother practically being force-fed by two carers - I tried to do the 'right' thing and make a formal complaint but the carers recited each others story and I was virtually told I hadn't seen what took place.

With hindsight I should have taken more direct, physical action. Politically correct? Probably not but it would made sure they didn't do it again.
 

garnuft

Registered User
Sep 7, 2012
6,585
Indeed.
I would have been tempted to punch their faces in.

Going to the police is still the best bet, don't waste time on all the other Agencies...the police will involve them all and they WON'T be able to try to bury it.
 

Wirralson

Account Closed
May 30, 2012
658
Indeed.
I would have been tempted to punch their faces in.

Going to the police is still the best bet, don't waste time on all the other Agencies...the police will involve them all and they WON'T be able to try to bury it.
Bear in mind that if the police find no offence has been committed (or even consider one hasn't) then their role stops. Personally, I'd suggest do the lot at once. SOVA is supposed to involve all of them at once anyhow.
 

Chris-G

Registered User
Jul 11, 2014
105
Indeed.
I would have been tempted to punch their faces in.

Going to the police is still the best bet, don't waste time on all the other Agencies...the police will involve them all and they WON'T be able to try to bury it.
Hi, to all that sympathised.... thanks.

However, the Police are slowly, (18 months now), investigating fraud charges against NHS personnel. (I do hope that this will not be edited, it is true).

I did mention to the financial crimes unit detective that the drugs situation was ongoing and that the GP refused to alter the drugs back.

He considered that if it continued then knowing that, the GPs were actually assaulting her with the full knowledge of the potential offence.

Did he investigate or advise? No he did not. He expressed the complexity and doubted that any officer outside of his specialist financial unit would likely be unable to fully investigate matters. He of course could not investigate non financial crimes as such.

How then without video footage can anyone get the Police to investigate a physical assault on someone that lacks cognition/communication enough to identify the perpetrators?

Luck to all.
 

Chris-G

Registered User
Jul 11, 2014
105
Disclosing the identity of a complainant is a bit of a problem in Data Protection Terms. Unless you specifically requested it was withheld, a person (including a company) being investigated is usually entitled to know the identity of the complainant - and as it's your relative they could make a pretty good guess. You raised a safeguarding issue and that automatically triggers an investigation of some kind - exactly what kind depends on the issue.

W
Hi Wirralson, They did not disclose my Identity as a complainant because I did not make a complaint about the home.

I complained about an SOVA issue in regard to the GP's and their refusal to stop poisoning my mother. (It was after all her consultant that stopped the drugs in the first place and then after the GP had wrongly prescribed them again).

So yes perhaps one should identify complainants. However one should also properly act upon their complaint and not just do what you guess that they want after hearing it third hand.

Perhaps the simple and much less expensive call back that I requested would have avoided the serious failure to act properly.

My comments and complaints were totally ignored by the LA's CEO and that is even more disturbing.
 

Chris-G

Registered User
Jul 11, 2014
105
To make this horrific situation even worse, if the carers involved deny anything happened (and assuming there is no covert CCTV) then anyone making the complaint will be summarily ignored on the basis that two-versus-one will only ever have one outcome. I had a similar case with my mother practically being force-fed by two carers - I tried to do the 'right' thing and make a formal complaint but the carers recited each others story and I was virtually told I hadn't seen what took place.

With hindsight I should have taken more direct, physical action. Politically correct? Probably not but it would made sure they didn't do it again.
My dad is always about to take "more direct, physical action". He is beginning to despair. Although he would only act upon clear cut observation.

My mum gets a fair few bruises. (Often on her face). Was even hospitalised for arm xrays after an "unobserved fall".

She is highly and fluidly mobile without cognition, as are some other residents at the home. They interact, sometimes violently..... Yet, no one ever notices the bruises except her husband on his daily visits in the late afternoon. The staff seldom record such violent incidents either.
(I was told that the NHS told the home that behaviour records do not get taken much notice of for CHC assessments anymore so they dont waste time recording bad behaviour.)

It would be almost impossible bearing all in mind, to prove who did what and when without video or the word of an honest observer. (Such an 8 hour a day visitor that cared for her dad has recently taken him out. Reports of incidents and who did what to whom have virtually ceased since).

Video cameras would need to be in the large and clearly observable main lounge, as that is where mum's unobserved and inexplicable injuries are all assumed by staff to have happened. So where were the staff?

It is the case that my father intervenes in several potential incidents per three hour visit and most days, he actually intervenes in a violent confrontation (or two). (Not necessarily involving his wife.) Once again, where were the staff?

I would add that the problems do not necessarily come down to deliberate negligence or lack of the desire to care but a lack of resources.
However, the injuries are never explained and that is disturbing in that without explanation, one's imagination could run wild.
 

Noorza

Registered User
Jun 8, 2012
6,542
Firstly thank you so much for all of your responses to a complete stranger, the kindness of this portal never ceases to amaze me. I have felt so alone in this quest for a good placement for my dad. His behaviour has changed recently as he is going through bereavement, his dad died (my grandad) which complicates dementia massively. The staff at the care home know this but have failed to respond appropriately and even mocked him when he cried.

I think extra information would help responses, so here goes:

- this did happen and I managed to get a recording capturing the abuse.
- it's a care home owned by a private provider.




Sent from my iPad using Talking Point
Game changer for me.

I would go to the regional press with your evidence, then give them permission to access the national press and contact your MP and the QCC. As you are ill let the manage it all and just let them have the evidence.
 

Wirralson

Account Closed
May 30, 2012
658
Hi, to all that sympathised.... thanks.

However, the Police are slowly, (18 months now), investigating fraud charges against NHS personnel. (I do hope that this will not be edited, it is true).

I did mention to the financial crimes unit detective that the drugs situation was ongoing and that the GP refused to alter the drugs back.

He considered that if it continued then knowing that, the GPs were actually assaulting her with the full knowledge of the potential offence.

Did he investigate or advise? No he did not. He expressed the complexity and doubted that any officer outside of his specialist financial unit would likely be unable to fully investigate matters. He of course could not investigate non financial crimes as such.

How then without video footage can anyone get the Police to investigate a physical assault on someone that lacks cognition/communication enough to identify the perpetrators?

Luck to all.
As the care home is private I assume that it is the GP area that is being invetsigated. I'd have expected the NHS counter-fraud service to be pushing things more quickly. And it's hard to see from your posts where the fraud element arises - I'd have thought assault and related offences would have been there for starters. Small-ish NHS frauds involve overtime/flexitime services or skimming imprest accounts. Larger ones usually involve things like false invoicing. Also hard to see what a financial crimes unit would do investigating a prescribing issue.

W
 

Chris-G

Registered User
Jul 11, 2014
105
As the care home is private I assume that it is the GP area that is being invetsigated. I'd have expected the NHS counter-fraud service to be pushing things more quickly. And it's hard to see from your posts where the fraud element arises - I'd have thought assault and related offences would have been there for starters. Small-ish NHS frauds involve overtime/flexitime services or skimming imprest accounts. Larger ones usually involve things like false invoicing. Also hard to see what a financial crimes unit would do investigating a prescribing issue.

W
Hiya Wirralson, The GP's were poisoning mum with meds (£1.38 a month), that were previously proven to be doing that and long stopped.

The GP's by continuing to prescribe (on cost and liability admission grounds it seems) after being told by us, were probably assaulting her.

Prior to that it was simply an error or error of judgement. We were not after blood; just the removal of the drug and it's original (£9.80 a month), reinstated.

The Forgery and Fraud allegations relate to the altering by a panel of 5 of 11 domains in a DST that recommended funding.

The altered DST sent to us was a forgery, plain and simple. (My past has involved getting people locked up for less).

The panel documentation was a pro-forma page that already had the refusal to fund CHC typed on it. The panel wrote across that automatic refusal "Panel save 100% CHC funding, inform family it will not continue."

In short the entire CHC process disallowed any funding unless the panel saved the patient from that fate.

That same DST forgery was copied by a panel member that created the forgery and then used it as the result of the 3 months assessment review.

Then a year later, the NHS did it again and other managers forged internal documents that informed the LA of their need to start charging for care.
This was after the LA,s MDT assessor had argued for two "Severe" scores and loads of "Highs".

The PCT panel did not raise the argued score as the framework requires and then later, sort it out to prevent it happening again as it is supposed to be done.

Then their internal documentation (as they sent to the LA), recorded that there had not been any dispute in the CHC assessment and partly, as such CHC funding was not continuing.

That was untrue and as it is patently obvious (Framework says not to), that anyone who alters a DST is not permitted to, they must have behaved dishonestly. Either that or they can only admit to misfeasance in a public office. It cannot be an error to repeatedly do something that is not permitted.

They must have behaved with the intent that someone act upon their false representation. (Which the council did by starting to charge for care).

It is fraud to dishonestly and knowingly make a false representation in the expectation that someone will act on it, in a financial matter.

As for NHS counter fraud. Unbeknownst to me, one of their Directors passed the brief telephone call information from me to RMS Tennon; their fraud investigators.

Without ever contacting me or even seeing the forgeries, they stated "I have thoroughly investigated your allegations and can find no evidence to substantiate them". "I can do nor more for you".

I complained to the Council and told them that fraud and forgery by the NHS had cost them money too. They eventually used a social worker to carry out a "thorough investigation" into a criminal accusation. I would laugh in their faces if it was not so serious.

He never saw the forgeries and wrote something like.... that as he could not find any evidence in his own files then there was no reason to investigate further.

The PCT, CCG, CSU, RMS Tennon, Counterfraud and the LA have all investigated without actually seeing the evidence. The CEO's of most organisations have refused to meet me to see the evidence.

MP's have asked NHS England Directors and the Council too, a series of questions about this. After long periods in waiting, they sent replies as if they had made investigations of their own.
Strange then how the replies implying full and thorough investigations at "God" level were substantially cut and pasted from correspondence from administrative level individuals, correspondence that I already hold.

What is even more disturbing is that an IRP (the forgery/fraud evidence came to light during the case file stage), would not look at the matter/evidence even though it was in their own case file. Why? Because they could only look the application of the criteria and the procedures used..... Forgery is not a failure of procedure apparently. Nor is refusing eligibility to every patient unless a benevolent panel saved them.

I went to the Police financial crimes unit. They were genuinely concerned, saw the evidence, confirmed their thoughts that both forgery and fraud have occurred but have since, investigated with the speed of the proverbial stunned slug.

I hope it sorts out some of the confusion. :) CG