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  1. #1
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    Care Assessment for care home - legalities

    Ok, this sitation is mum is in crisis/respite which ends next week. The local council paid for four weeks and it's now over 3 weeks.

    The social worker came out and assessed mum's needs, en-suite (she has a digestive disorder). The reason mum ended up in care is she loves the outdoors and when bored walks. She was a long distance walker. To her at 77 walking 5 to 10 miles is literally a walk in the park.

    The assessor agreed mum needs somewhere with outdoor space, large enough to stimulate her eg activities. Also she's very independent, it's literally the current/short term memory due to Alzheimers that brought the situation to a head.

    They use a bidding system in Cardiff, five companies came back with their bid offer. Three of which have a similar price bracket, the two others, are very confined and small without bathrooms and shared rooms.

    The social worker agreed the two smaller care homes are not suitable as they do not meet mum's needs.

    They are in negotiation with the team (social services) as generally they go to the lowest bidder.

    This leaves three - one of which does not have a bathroom. Leaves two - both same price. Price is £500 a week more than the cheapest quote for a care home that is not suitable. We as a family have been asked to pay this, I explained I'm on benefits and the family cannot afford this amount.

    Has anyone experienced this? Is there a way to take the matter further eg solicitor intervention? Calls are going back 'n fore at the moment. As an outcome must be made today as we have the weekend and next week she needs to move to a new permanent care home.

    HELP!
    Last edited by CardiffLady; 21-04-2017 at 11:12 AM.
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  2. #2
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    I'm not an expert but I've always been told that SS have to suggest at least one home that meets her needs. If that home is more expensive than what they usually pay, they will simply have to up their payments. The SW agrees that the cheaper homes do not need her needs, so that's that. Top-ups should be for things like a bigger room or a better view. I hope someone can post the legislation for that, because they shouldn't be asking you to pay the difference in price to a home that doesn't meet her needs in the first place.
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beate View Post
    I'm not an expert but I've always been told that SS have to suggest at least one home that meets her needs. If that home is more expensive than what they usually pay, they will simply have to up their payments. The SW agrees that the cheaper homes do not need her needs, so that's that. Top-ups should be for things like a bigger room or a better view. I hope someone can post the legislation for that, because they shouldn't be asking you to pay the difference in price to a home that doesn't meet her needs in the first place.
    Thank you Beate, that's what I thought. Sitting here now waiting for the phone call, like you I'd like to see some legislation on this.
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  4. #4
    Registered User CeliaW's Avatar
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    If you do a search on TP for 'top ups' you will find quite a few threads. It's not a topic I know well enough to comment knowledgeably but there are various legal issues about paying / not paying and if you should be asked etc. Sorry I can't help in detail.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CeliaW View Post
    If you do a search on TP for 'top ups' you will find quite a few threads. It's not a topic I know well enough to comment knowledgeably but there are various legal issues about paying / not paying and if you should be asked etc. Sorry I can't help in detail.

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    Thank you Celia - no nothing came back in the search for top ups.
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  6. #6
    Registered User CeliaW's Avatar
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    Just did a quick Google outside of TP
    http://www.communitycare.co.uk/2016/...-ups-care-act/

    Sorry you didn't find anything but I know it's been discussed a lot of times so not sure how to locate 😕

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by CeliaW View Post
    Just did a quick Google outside of TP
    http://www.communitycare.co.uk/2016/...-ups-care-act/

    Sorry you didn't find anything but I know it's been discussed a lot of times so not sure how to locate 😕

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    Thank you so much for the link It seems there's no hard facts, unless it is challenged (no one seems to have challenged it to date). Lots of gobbledly gook to read through.
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  8. #8
    Registered User CeliaW's Avatar
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    The latest care act (2014) changed things and presumably there haven't been court cases setting precedents yet. But it does explain reasonably well what Social services should be doing and difference between needed facilities and extras for example.

    I am sure nitram, PeteR or KevinL will be along and they usually know a fair bit on legislation etc ☺

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  9. #9
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    Top-ups and choice of services

    The local authority must ensure you have at least one choice that is affordable from the amount identified in your personal budget, and ideally more than one. Some local authorities will have a list of preferred providers that they will usually recommend.....

    .....The local authority can never require you to pay a top-up payment and must ensure there is at least one choice available within the amount set in your personal budget. Any arrangements to pay a top-up must involve your local authority, and should not be directly between you and your provider.

    http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/social-...-for-care.aspx

    EDIT

    More legal statement - hopefully it also applies to Wales

    1. Summary

    1.4 If an individual requests it, the council must also arrange for care in accommodation
    more expensive than it would usually fund provided a third party or, in certain
    circumstances, the resident, is willing and able to pay the difference between the cost the
    council would usually expect to pay and the actual cost of the accommodation (to ‘top up')
    These are the only circumstances where either a third party or the resident may be
    asked to top up (see paragraph 3).


    https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...DH_logo_1_.pdf
    Last edited by nitram; 21-04-2017 at 01:32 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by nitram View Post
    Top-ups and choice of services

    The local authority must ensure you have at least one choice that is affordable from the amount identified in your personal budget, and ideally more than one. Some local authorities will have a list of preferred providers that they will usually recommend.....

    .....The local authority can never require you to pay a top-up payment and must ensure there is at least one choice available within the amount set in your personal budget. Any arrangements to pay a top-up must involve your local authority, and should not be directly between you and your provider.

    http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/social-...-for-care.aspx
    Five care homes came back, mum very independent, agile can walk 10 miles a day, washes, dresses herself and would like to socialise with other people. She's lived on her own for the last 30 years:

    1. 2 do not meetany of mum's needs - both offer shared room, no bathroom in a house of 3/5 people.
    2. 1 does not have a bathroom - again do not meet her needs, she has a digestive issue
    3. 2 are priced at an additional £500 per week extra.



    So at present we are being offered one of the two which are the cheapest - which do not meet her needs (social worker said this when she did her assessment - but I do not have it in writing).

    Day is now drawing on and they (social) behind the scenes are negotiating with themselves regarding the money.

    Even the care home where she is (under crisis/respite, didn't put a bid in as they cannot meet her needs. They have four beds available and as the crisis bed was already occupied mum is occupying a permanent bed.

    Do we have any defence? The other 2 care homes, offer more residents, outdoor space, activities, walks, gardens and dietary needs (she's a coeliac), room with an en-suite.

    Mum doesn't have much of a stomach, and needs capsules to digest food, now and again there is an occasional mishap but mum copes with this with her own bathroom, goes in showers, cleans up and dresses. She's only getting older and these mishaps only occur about once a month. No loss of dignity walking our of her room across a landing/communal space dripping with faecal matter.
    Last edited by CardiffLady; 21-04-2017 at 01:37 PM.
    Spike Milligan's epitaph 'I told you I was ill'

  11. #11
    Registered User Pete R's Avatar
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    If your Mum is also in Wales the legislation is slightly different to England.

    This fact sheet from Age UK Cymru covers what you need to know. Go to page 37, Sec 10.3. read it all but it does say this......l.

    "The Welsh Government’s guidance is clear that “where no suitable
    accommodation is available at its standard amount to meet a person’s
    assessed needs in full, the local authority must arrange a placement in a
    suitable more expensive setting and adjust its funding accordingly to
    ensure that needs are met. In such circumstances, the local authority must
    not ask the person being placed or a third party to pay the additional
    cost”


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  12. #12
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    Hi Nitram

    The second link is very informative, reading and re-reading it. Thank you.
    Spike Milligan's epitaph 'I told you I was ill'

  13. #13
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    Pete R - thank you off to look now.
    Spike Milligan's epitaph 'I told you I was ill'

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by CardiffLady View Post
    Pete R - thank you off to look now.
    Appologies forgot the link.

    http://www.ageuk.org.uk/Global/Age-C....pdf?dtrk=true
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete R View Post
    Read through and page 38 meets the above criteria. Wish there was legislation quoting the criteria. Thank you - I did try to find it, so your link really has helped.
    Spike Milligan's epitaph 'I told you I was ill'

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