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  1. #16
    Registered User Pete R's Avatar
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    The Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014 came into force in 2016. It is not an easy read and there is Statutory Guidance/Codes of Practice to explain (to us mortals and the powers to be) what is meant and the intention of the legislation.

    At the beginning it clearly states.........
    "In this code a requirement is expressed as “must” or “must not”. Guidance, where local authorities have discretion, is expressed as “may” or “should/should not”.

    Annexe C page 48 of the link below mentions many a "must"........

    "4.2. A person must not be asked to pay an additional cost towards the cost of providing the type of accommodation in a care home to meet their assessed needs. To ensure they have a genuine choice over this a local authority must have more than one option available for a person to choose from within its standard amount for residential care. Where no suitable accommodation is available at its standard amount to meet a person’s assessed needs in full, the local authority must arrange a placement in a suitable more expensive setting and adjust its funding accordingly to ensure that needs are met. In such circumstances, the local authority must not ask the person being placed or a third party to pay the additional cost. Only where a person has chosen a care home that is genuinely more expensive than a local authority would usually pay for a care home placement of that type or, where a person has requested services or facilities that do not form part of their assessed needs, can an additional cost be sought."


    https://socialcare.wales/cms_assets/...assessmenr.pdf

    Hope that was in time for your phone call.
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  2. #17
    Registered User CeliaW's Avatar
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    I just knew Pete and nitram would bring up the right more specific facts - thanks chaps ☺

    Good luck Cardiff Lady.

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  3. #18
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    Pete R

    You beat me to it by 1 minute!!!!

  4. #19
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    Pete R

    No phone call as yet. Last call was at 10am by social. I hope they don't give me short notice on Monday - eg mum has to move, without any consultation etc. Thank you - I've pulled the page up and ready to "quote" if needed.

    Thank yoiu Nitram and everyone, now I've got the evidence in front of me. Will let you all know what happens.
    Spike Milligan's epitaph 'I told you I was ill'

  5. #20
    Registered User Kevinl's Avatar
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    I've asked this before (so feel free to yawn) but why do people deal with the SS on the phone? At very least ask if they mind you recording the call or if they mind someone listening in on the extension, see the reaction that produces in what they say.
    I guess the only ploy they may have is to say that there is somewhere with the required facilities but it's in Abercwm tal-y-bont (that is a made up name I'm sure there is no such place) which is miles from you and a town well known for its crime and drugs problem. They have to meet your mum's needs not your convenience, so it's a 110 miles away...your problem.
    Although being near family, friends and an area they know should be considered if you live in a prosperous area this can be used as a lever by them, I've seen it done.
    K
    If you're going through hell, keep going

  6. #21
    Registered User Pete R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CardiffLady View Post
    Pete R

    No phone call as yet. Last call was at 10am by social. I hope they don't give me short notice on Monday - eg mum has to move, without any consultation etc. Thank you - I've pulled the page up and ready to "quote" if needed.
    It is a Friday so..

    Good Luck.
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  7. #22
    Registered User Pete R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinl View Post
    I've asked this before (so feel free to yawn) but why do people deal with the SS on the phone? At very least ask if they mind you recording the call or if they mind someone listening in on the extension, see the reaction that produces in what they say.
    I guess the only ploy they may have is to say that there is somewhere with the required facilities but it's in Abercwm tal-y-bont (that is a made up name I'm sure there is no such place) which is miles from you and a town well known for its crime and drugs problem. They have to meet your mum's needs not your convenience, so it's a 110 miles away...your problem.
    Although being near family, friends and an area they know should be considered if you live in a prosperous area this can be used as a lever by them, I've seen it done.
    K
    I have always recorded all phone calls with SS. You do not have to tell them and is often best not to.

    As you say in the English Statutory Guidance I have found no reference to being close to relatives as a reason for an LA paying more, just the requirement to provide one suitable home.

    However looking today at the Welsh equivalent it does actually stipulate that as one of the reasons for the LA to pay more.
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  8. #23
    Volunteer Host Shedrech's Avatar
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    hello CardiffLady
    I don't have any additional info - the brilliant 'lads' between them are amazing on facts

    just want to agree with Kevinl about phone calls
    and I'd not be waiting for them to contact you, at the last minute, so you have no choice/time left to disagree
    personally I'd e-mail the SW you are dealing with and outline your conversations so far, to 'document' your understanding of the situation
    then, as a pre-emptive move, I'd quote what you've been given here so that the SW and background team know that you are aware of guidelines and won't be easy to bamboozle about this placement
    and I'd bullet point again the specific needs your mum has, which means that some of the placements suggested do not meet her care needs and it would not be in her best interests to transfer to them - if you have a favourite amongst those remaining, I'd outline how that one best meets her needs
    all this so that the SW has your expectations clearly in black and white
    best wishes
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  9. #24
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    Shredrech, never been given an email address, though on the day of mum's assessment she gave me a direct line (though I always have to speak to someone else), rare I get to speak to mum's assigned social worker. It's close on 3pm - will wait a further 15 minutes and call. Being a Friday they may all scarper at 3.30/4pm.
    Spike Milligan's epitaph 'I told you I was ill'

  10. #25
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    Have you ever have had any written contact with SS or could look up at least a general email address for them online? Usually they are all something like firstname.lastname@nameofla.gov.uk

    Don't let them steamroller you. It's not up to them to decide behind closed doors. There is legislation for this, so quote it to them.
    Just keep swimming!

  11. #26
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    "...never been given an email address..."

    You could try the web contact page for Adult Care Services for the city in your username.

    https://www.cardiff.gov.uk/ENG/resid...s/default.aspx

  12. #27
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    They've just phoned and stated - the two cheaper care homes are not suitable, the others are too expensive. She's going to have to remain in respite/crisis for another three weeks (two weeks for the bids, a few days to assess them). I quoted the following:

    Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014: Part 4 and 5 Code of Practice (Charging and Financial Assessment), Welsh Government Factsheet

    The Welsh Government’s guidance is clear that “where no suitable accommodation is available at its standard amount to meet a person’s assessed needs in full, the local authority must arrange a placement in a suitable more expensive setting and adjust its funding accordingly to ensure that needs are met. In such circumstances, the local authority must notask the person being placed or a third party to pay the additional cost.


    I mentioned that the care home she's in didn't put a bid in even though mum is occupying a permenent bed (crisis bed is already being used). Also qoted that another care home rang me this week (Wednesday) to say they had two beds available - they did not put a bid in.
    Not happy, awaiting the deputy directors phone call, though they finish for the weekend in 25 mins.
    Spike Milligan's epitaph 'I told you I was ill'

  13. #28
    Registered User Pete R's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CardiffLady View Post
    They've just phoned and stated - the two cheaper care homes are not suitable, the others are too expensive. She's going to have to remain in respite/crisis for another three weeks (two weeks for the bids, a few days to assess them). I quoted the following:

    Social Services and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014: Part 4 and 5 Code of Practice (Charging and Financial Assessment), Welsh Government Factsheet

    The Welsh Government’s guidance is clear that “where no suitable accommodation is available at its standard amount to meet a person’s assessed needs in full, the local authority must arrange a placement in a suitable more expensive setting and adjust its funding accordingly to ensure that needs are met. In such circumstances, the local authority must notask the person being placed or a third party to pay the additional cost.


    I mentioned that the care home she's in didn't put a bid in even though mum is occupying a permenent bed (crisis bed is already being used). Also qoted that another care home rang me this week (Wednesday) to say they had two beds available - they did not put a bid in.
    Not happy, awaiting the deputy directors phone call, though they finish for the weekend in 25 mins.
    Even I feel chastised. I do hope it works.
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  14. #29
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    lol Pete,

    With everyone's help providing me with legislation I've now used it and await their response. More importantly I wonder if the Deputy Director will actually phone me back. It's now 16.17 and they close in 13 minutes. Having read the legislation I advised you are going against your own guidelines!


    Edited: Had a call back - as expected - Deputy Director has left now for the weekend.
    Last edited by CardiffLady; 21-04-2017 at 04:28 PM.
    Spike Milligan's epitaph 'I told you I was ill'

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevinl View Post
    I've asked this before (so feel free to yawn) but why do people deal with the SS on the phone? At very least ask if they mind you recording the call or if they mind someone listening in on the extension, see the reaction that produces in what they say.
    I guess the only ploy they may have is to say that there is somewhere with the required facilities but it's in Abercwm tal-y-bont (that is a made up name I'm sure there is no such place) which is miles from you and a town well known for its crime and drugs problem. They have to meet your mum's needs not your convenience, so it's a 110 miles away...your problem.
    Although being near family, friends and an area they know should be considered if you live in a prosperous area this can be used as a lever by them, I've seen it done.
    K
    Unfortunately, this is the way they work, even the landline number given to me as a direct line - is in fact for the Blind. Figure that one? They won't meet with me again, even though I have LPA Health and Welfare.
    Spike Milligan's epitaph 'I told you I was ill'

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