Nursing home, next of kin rights

[JackMac]

Hi

Just wondered if anyone can shed any light on this.

My mum is late stage dementia in a care home which our family are very happy with. The staff are caring and she is always clean and well presented. Dad visits 5 days a week and my sister and I visit every week too.
My Auntie (mum's sister) visits twice a week and we are estranged from her. Mum and her sister were not close.

Anyway, a week or so ago, she complained to staff mum wasn't wearing a skirt and it was a hot day (not something we had a problem with as mum feels the cold).
Then yesterday she and my cousin went in there (mum is always seen in the lounge area). My cousin entered my mum's bedroom (which is normally locked) and got a blouse, then they took her to the bathroom and got her changed.
The staff told Dad today as they weren't comfortable with it either. They did not ask staff or explain why there were doing it as far as I know.

So my question is, does dad as the next of kin have the right to say staff must refuse them entry into mum's room and that they must not dress her. Mum was very private and would have hated them undressing her and changing her clothes. Surely this could be a health and safety issue too since they don't work in the home?
We are going to talk to the care home manager tomorrow but don't want this to escalate into something huge as it wouldn't be nice for the home being in the middle of it.... since we suspect this is all about the family feud, not mum's welfare.

how would you handle it? Do we legally have the right to stop them doing this? Common sense says surely we do as we know what is best for mum and this is an invasion of her privacy in my book.

thanks in advance.

J

 

[Wolfsgirl]

Absolutely agree with your last sentence. How dare they be so high handed!!!

I took a duvet off my Mum today after saying to the carers she was very hot and would replace it with a throw. They are with Mum more than me and are so very caring I feel she is in such safe hands it would have seemed rude if I had just been disregarded them. They were happy with this.

I would also say please do trust your instincts

 

[garnuft]

Oh gosh...I feel for you. My instinct would be to tell Auntie and cousin to back off, but you are obviously kinder and more sensible than me.

It is absolutely an invasion of her privacy and they should be ashamed of themselves for upsetting her routine and possibly sparking your Mum's memory of past upsets...you said they weren't close and you are estranged from her...

I would definitely appeal to the Care home manager for help, I'm sure they've encountered this sort of thing before, they will know or find a way to speak to your Aunt and let her know it's NOT OK to come in and change the clothes of one of the residents, even if it is her sister.

Your poor Dad, he must be upset by all this and I can imagine you are livid but keeping a cap on it (quite sensibly).

I would ask that the home inform her/Aunt that her visits will be chaperoned if she doesn't comply.

Gawd, sometimes the problems with family are as distressing as the trauma of the illness.

Please ignore my advice if it's useless...me being me, would set the Aunty off with sparks in her nether regions.

 

[JackMac]

Thanks so much for your replies. good to know we are not being oversensitive.

the staff are so lovely and it's a shame they are caught up in this. just hope it doesn't get out of hand as im quite certain their problem is with us not mums care.

 

[LYN T]

I'm not sure why but as next of kin my Husband's CH informed me that I could decide who could visit.

They told me that families quite often fall out and they are quite happy to refuse visits if it's going to be a problem.

In the circumstances that you outline I would be furious if a visitor had taken P somewhere and changed his clothes. There is a problem with untrained people being unintentionally rough and harming a fragile person's skin. Let alone the dignity issue. It's just not right.

Have a word with the Manager and let your feelings be known

Take care

Lyn T

 

[annie h]

Hi JackMac,
Based on an experience I had I would caution you to be a bit careful and be prepared with your case as the home management may switch onto "cautious" mode as they will want to avoid getting involved in a family dispute. My experience was that I never had any difficulty at all about making decisions for my Mum until something went wrong at the hospital. However, when I made a formal complaint they started questioning my status - did I have welfare Power of Attorney? No - so was I really next of kin or could there be other family members who might take a different view? It wasn't actually a problem for me - one of my siblings is simply an invisible and the other lives abroad so de facto it was evident that I was the only one who was in a position to make a decision about complaining and after I convinced them of that I had no further problem but it was a sticky moment. But it was understandable that they were very wary of getting into a difficult family situation where different relatives had different views. The point is I think you need to be prepared for them to be cautious about taking a stand for one relative against another, and go to the meeting prepared with reasons why your Dad's decisions should take precedence.

Personally, I think it shows a lack of empathy for them to do what they did. Actually most elderly feel the cold more as they get older and less active, whereas they are just assuming she feels temperature as they do.

 

[JackMac]

Thanks so much for the replies. Really helpful and reassuring.

We met with the managers this morning and they are not happy either about how their staff are being spoken to and invasion of privacy for mum. They said we can stop them visiting but we don't want to do that...............yet.

I am going to speak to my auntie and the manager is going to speak to her too. If this doesn't work, they will put something in writing, then a third time we can stop them visiting. I really don't want it to come to that but it's up to them I guess.

Anyway, the fact is, as next of kin, we can decide who visits etc. they said. So that's good to know.

right, off to speak to the wicked Auntie........wish me luck.

J

 

[Raggedrobin]

Good luck with that! I think when people interfere like that it may be because they feel a bit impotent, don't know what to do, so they start fussing about silly stuff. They probablu feel out of their depth so are manifesting trying to control an uncontrollable situation. Also they may feel guilt for their relationship with her.

i hope it gets sorted out in a diplomatic way, do let us know

 

[Neph]

Good luck, I'm the only one that visits mum so I don't have that problem, but I hope you can resolve it without too much hassle.

 

[JackMac]

Well it did not go well. My auntie was hysterical and I actually came away questioning her sanity.

She said mum had a top and a jumper and no bra and it was boiling hot etc. The staff told us she had a very thin jumper on and that's who I believe. I think they put vests on her rather than bras now, not sure. I don't think it matters as long as she is comfortable.

She was adamant as mum's sister she has a say but I told her she does not actually have the right to dictate this and the home agrees. She wouldn't agree so I said well they can stop you if you continue. She was raging. We got nowhere.

I spoke to the manager again though and she said she will just give her a complaints form. I'm not sure she will get anywhere making a complaint as we would be spoken to and we don't back her up. CQC would listen to us.
I feel embarrassed to be honest that my auntie is causing this trouble for them.

 

[nicoise]

This link might explain a little more about the definition of "next of kin", and where Auntie might come in the pecking order:

http://www.stchristophers.org.uk/le...ons-about-‘next-of-kin’-and-power-of-attorney

As I remember, the battle of the bra was one we gave up on fairly quickly - it is indicative that Auntie doesn't really understand the "new normal" that you become used to when living with dementia. Whilst she might not approve of how your mum is dressed these days, your mums needs and dignity should be respected by her (and her daughter) and she should not interfere with care that your dad and you are happy with.

 

[Nebiroth]

Your dad qualifies as closest relative (what used to be called next of kin) - a spouse always comes top of the list, after that it moves on to children, eldest first and so on.

So basically his wishes will always take priority over your aunt's - closest relatives have surprisingly few legal authorities but they are always listened to first, and their view of what their husband/wife would have wished had they been well enough/capable of expressing it always takes first place.

Also, the care home have already seen that your aunt is acting inappropriately - it would be questionable behavior if even your dad decided to take your mum off to her room and change her clothes without informing the staff first. Let alone her sister turning up out of the blue and doing so. Not only is there the question of privacy but also whether it distresses your mum and if she is frail then it would be quite easy to hurt her if one is not properly trained in such matters. Lastly, I suspect the care home would be uncomfortable without this happening under staff supervision - they have a duty of care towards residents and sad to say there are evil people in this world who would abuse a relative in such circumstances. The care home are likely to play it ultrasafe for this reason alone.

In the eyes of the law disrobing and changing someone's clothes without their express agreement would be construed as abuse.

Your aunt also seems unableto appreciate that some people always feel cold even if "overdressed" on a hot day. The only thing to watch out for is if they show signs of actually being overheated, like sweating or becoming dehydrated. Care home staff know what to look for, relatives like your aunt don't.

She may have been well intentioned, but is misguided.

 

[Raggedrobin]

Oh dear, so sorry to hear it didn't go well. maybe you are right, maybe the aunt is showing early signs of dementia herself. Getting dementia patients up and reasonably appropriately dressed can be such an issue, you don't want your mum developing resistance to it because it is being done more than once a day.
I always say to the staff, I don't care what combo of clothes mum has on, so long as she is dressed and actually my bugbear is that some of the young girls don't realise that mum needs a cardi as well as a blouse, but I told the manager about this and they understood and try to make sure she has one on now, as she is very, very thin.

 

[garnuft]

Oh, well at least you tried with Aunty, to be honest I didn't think there was much chance of her being reasonable as what she did wasn't a reasonable thing to do, so it didn't exactly bode well.
I think the manager will be glad to have had the chat with you too, it makes things easier for them, to understand the family dynamics.

I understand what Annie h is talking about though; the manager being reluctant to get involved in family rows.

As the youngest of six siblings (but the one that did the most hands on care) I would have created like nobody's business if there had been any clash of opinion between my older siblings and me and they tried to play a trump card of next-of-kin/pecking order.

I WOULD have stated my case MOST firmly and as next-of-kin/nearest relative has no legal standing, if there had been any rows (there wasn't really, thank gawd, we all mostly agreed and my sister and I who did all of the care mostly accepted the invisibility/lack of input from the others...well it's better than invisibles that think they know it all, isn't it?)

My Mam was always cold, her house was hotter than the orchid house in Kew Gardens, she couldn't bear a draught and had a cardi on all year round, she also gave up wearing a bra for the last year or two, preferring to just wear her petticoat instead.

She was quite big busted (unlike me, I got her temper not her physique) and used to make me laugh by saying it was good for her complexion to not wear a bra... gravity took all the wrinkles out of her face!

I hope things get sorted and Aunty stops trying to control things.

 

[dilne]

Garnuft you have just made my day. No wrinkles for me when I'm older. Just the bad back and the grooves in my shoulders

Sent from my GT-S6810P using Talking Point mobile app

 

[jellyfish]

Cheaper option than Botox Garnuft.....what a good idea

 

[JackMac]

thanks everyone. We got more details today and apparently she went in with the carer to change mum. Mum would still have been very uncomfortable about her sister dressing her as they were not close.
I am reassured by the comments about people feeling the cold and the comments about bras!!! gave me a laugh about the wrinkles

shockingly. ...the Auntie is a retired nurse. She knows nothing about dementia though..that is clear. It's a specialised area and being an ex-nurse doesn't qualify her here. I worked in a dementia home in Australia and the residents wore warm clothes in heat there too.

 

[Wolfsgirl]

Brilliant - I actually did laugh out loud!

Oh, well at least you tried with Aunty, to be honest I didn't think there was much chance of her being reasonable as what she did wasn't a reasonable thing to do, so it didn't exactly bode well.
I think the manager will be glad to have had the chat with you too, it makes things easier for them, to understand the family dynamics.

I understand what Annie h is talking about though; the manager being reluctant to get involved in family rows.

As the youngest of six siblings (but the one that did the most hands on care) I would have created like nobody's business if there had been any clash of opinion between my older siblings and me and they tried to play a trump card of next-of-kin/pecking order.

I WOULD have stated my case MOST firmly and as next-of-kin/nearest relative has no legal standing, if there had been any rows (there wasn't really, thank gawd, we all mostly agreed and my sister and I who did all of the care mostly accepted the invisibility/lack of input from the others...well it's better than invisibles that think they know it all, isn't it?)

My Mam was always cold, her house was hotter than the orchid house in Kew Gardens, she couldn't bear a draught and had a cardi on all year round, she also gave up wearing a bra for the last year or two, preferring to just wear her petticoat instead.

She was quite big busted (unlike me, I got her temper not her physique) and used to make me laugh by saying it was good for her complexion to not wear a bra... gravity took all the wrinkles out of her face!

I hope things get sorted and Aunty stops trying to control things.

 

[copsham]

Hi all,
My mother, in a nursing home says she does not wear a bra because it is not the fashion in there any more!!