Possible benefit fraud over joint accounts - no POA - advice please!

[24fan]

Hello,

just wondered if anyone could shed any light on my predicament.

I am my mother's carer, we don't have POA as she doesn't need it - she is more than capable of managing her affairs - but, after my father died, she realised that she needed to protect me. He wouldn't do the POA but she had always handled the money and everything was in joint names so she could still manage perfectly. She realised that if anything should happen to her and she was unable to pay bills, or ... then I would have no money to pay for anything, and probate takes around six months during which time I would be homeless for non-payment of the mortgage and utilities and then in prison for non-payment of council tax - try asking any of them to wait six months to be paid - and I have no relatives to get a loan from, so she added me to her accounts.

I don't know how much money is there, don't have access to the funds - I have cash cards but don't know what the PIN numbers are as I've never opened them - don't see statements, don't go with her when she does her banking - this money is nothing to do with me at all, just that I have been added to her accounts to ensure that, as her carer, I can pay whatever bills need to be paid if she can't. She is also the second person on my account for the same reason, she has a card but never sees the statements, doesn't know how much money is there etc.

I have now had a letter from the Fraud and Error Department and have an interview on Friday. They have not said what it is about but, as I don't do anything wrong, I am not that person, this joint account thing is the only thing I can think of that it could be.

Like I said, we haven't done POA because it's not necessary and if we had, and it was in force, Mummy couldn't do what she wants with her money so joint accounts is the only way we know of to make sure I can take care of things when she can't - she's 82.

I'm guessing they are now looking at the money in the joint accounts and thinking if that half is mine, then I can't claim the Income Support top-up I get on top of the Carer's Allowance. I have £90 in my current account, £300 in savings and a £2000.00 credit card bill, so it's hardly as if I am benefitting in any way from this money! It's my mother's money and that is that.

I just wondered if anyone else had fallen foul of the same sort of thing?

I cannot believe I face prosecution because my mother had the foresight to protect in the only way that we know can be done, and to allow me to pay household bills for her.

Any help/advice would be very welcome, and thank you in advance.

 

[Saffie]

Like I said, we haven't done POA because it's not necessary and if we had, and it was in force, Mummy couldn't do what she wants with her money so joint accounts is the only way we know of to make sure I can take care of things when she can't - she's 82.

I'm afraid that I can't help you with your current problem though I am very sorry you are facing this.
I would just like to say though that, as far as I am aware, arranging an LPA and even registering it, doesn't mean that your mother wouldn't be able to continue to do what she wants with her money.
That would only happen when you yourself activated the LPA. It just means that it is ready for whenever that should be necessary.
So, perhaps, once this business is sorted, you might want to consider arranging one.
I am arranging one for my daughters as soon as I find the time. It might never need to be used but at least it will be available as and when it might be.

I wish you all the best of luck for the interview on Friday.

 

[24fan]

Thank you for your response.

Yes, I think she would be able to do what she wanted with her money until the POA was activated but, until it was, I wouldn't be able to do anything for her - it seems to be entirely that she can manage until she can't, or I manage because she can't - no middle ground where I have the capacity to 'help' as her carer, without taking her rights away. Joint accounts seemed the only way to do both things.

 

[Nebiroth]

I suspect the problem is the joint savings account.

Income Support has a capital means test of £16,000. This means that if you have this sum or more in savings accounts (in total, not just in any one single account) you cannot receive Income Support. If you have capital between £6000 and £15,999 your Income Support would be reduced on a sliding scale. This is because savings are assigned a "notional income" value; that is, capital is presumed to generate a weekly income (even if it doesn't!). Capital below £6000 does not affect Income Support.

For most such means tests, money that is held in joint accounts is divided equally between the joint account holders; that is, for the purposes of the means test, the capital in a joint account is divided equally and each part assigned to the capital of the joint account holders.

For example, if the joint account is between you and your mum and it holds £18,000 then (assuming this rule is applied) you would each be assigned £9,000 to your capital assets for the purposes of the means test.

Note that it is usually irrelevent as to who put what amounts of money into the joint account; this is because under bank rules, joint account owners all have complete access to all the money. There is nothing in the law that would stop you taking all of th emoney and spending it. So in essence the money is "yours". Even though you do not of course touch it and don't know the PINs etc.


Note that I am not CERTAIN that this is the problem, because different rules apply to different means tests. So the problem may be elsewhere. But I strongly suspect that this is trouble.

 

[Nebiroth]

Hello,

realised that if anything should happen to her and she was unable to pay bills, or ... then I would have no money to pay for anything, and probate takes around six months during which time I would be homeless for non-payment of the mortgage and utilities and then in prison for non-payment of council tax - try asking any of them to wait six months to be paid - and I have no relatives to get a loan from, so she added me to her accounts.

That is not quite the case. If a person's estate is simple there is often no need to get probate (although if I recall correctly, it is usually necessary if property is involved). Also, so long as the estate and the Will is simple, most banks will transfer cash from the person who has passed away to the beneficiarry according to the Will almost right away.

When my dad passed away his Will and estates were very simple, and the bank closed his accounts and transferred the money from his account to my mum (who was the beneficiarry in the Will) - we only had to go into a branch and produce the death certificate and Will.

Like I said, we haven't done POA because it's not necessary and if we had, and it was in force, Mummy couldn't do what she wants with her money so joint accounts is the only way we know of to make sure I can take care of things when she can't - she's 82..

Again this is not the case. If a POA is in force then your Mummy could operate her accounts so long as you, as the attorney, did not prevent her from doing so.

There is absolutely nothing to say that you, as attorney, cannot simply judge that your mummy was capable of operating her own accounts with (for example) your assistance. It might well be that you, as attorney, did things like paying say Council Tax or that sort of thing but your Mummy could continue to draw cash to go shopping. Or any other such arrangements.

 

[24fan]

24Fan, no offense, and I know you don't want advice about POA but I think you've got the wrong idea about them - they need to be registered before they can be used, but nobody needs to use it if there is no need to. It's just a safeguard just in case she can't manage her finances herself in the future. Once registered they can be used as and when required. And once it's used for something, it doesn't mean that it ever needs to be used again. Nobody is going to say your Mum can't do exactly as she likes with her money, for as long as she can.

And you need to be careful about the joint account. I have one with my Mum and have done for some years now, and I do use it, with my own debit card, when I do her shopping or buy something for her she has asked for. But beware, some banks can freeze a joint account if they suspect that one of the account holders has lost capacity, then neither of you could get access to the money. Having her POA should solve this, should it ever occur.

As to your other problem, then I've no advice, I'm afraid, But how would they even know that you have a joint account with your Mum, unless you or someone else told them. If you think that this is the reason you've been called for interview, then I'd suggest that you take as much proof with you that you have not used your Mum's money for yourself. Good luck, and I hope it all goes well next week.

Thank you - we asked a lot about POA when Pa first started with the symptoms of AD but then, as we could get round it, and he was so set against it, we gave up, and our view of it was, obviously, informed by info. at that time, and as it isn't necessary at the mo. for Ma, it isn't something we'd considered and I certainly didn't know it was an 'as and when needed' thing nor about the accounts being frozen, so thank you for that info.

How they know is that now, when you open a bank account, you have to agree to your details being passed to HM Revenue and Customs so that they can poke about in your affairs to make sure the accounts aren't being used for money laundering so I guess they cross reference things and saw what looks wrong without knowing the full story.

 

[nitram]

"...I have now had a letter from the Fraud and Error Department..."

What Fraud and Error Department, bank,HMRC,DWP,...?

 

[24fan]

"...I have now had a letter from the Fraud and Error Department..."

What Fraud and Error Department, bank,HMRC,DWP,...?

The DWP. It does say error and that is what this is - geez, talk about the road to hell ...

 

[24fan]

Ahh, right, I get it. It sounds to me like Nebiroth may have it right then, about the joint saving account. Not sure what you can do about that, other than very rapidly having your name taken off it.

And then what, I'm sure they would then start on my taking my name off as an attempt to hide assets so that I could get Income Support!!!!!

I've seen so many people turning up to sign on at the JobCentre with their Louis Vuitton bags and arriving in their BMWs and they're after me.

I can't possibly live on the Carer's Allowance alone let alone manage to repay the £2K+ they would want repaid and whatever penalties - I simply don't have any money to do that - I struggle as it is, hence the credit card bill.

 

[jenniferpa]

I'm not sure I can help with your current problem, but what you could have done (rather than a joint account) is have a 3rd party mandate on the account. That way, there would never have been any question that the money was your mothers, but you could have operated the account on her behalf if necessary.

 

[24fan]

Sorry, didn't mean to offend you with that - it was the only thing I could think of, and you did ask for opinions. I'll keep them to myself from now on.

You didn't offend me - sorry if I sounded sharp, it wasn't meant. I'm just starting to think now that whatever I do or we have done will be wrong.

 

[24fan]

I'm not sure I can help with your current problem, but what you could have done (rather than a joint account) is have a 3rd party mandate on the account. That way, there would never have been any question that the money was your mothers, but you could have operated the account on her behalf if necessary.

Thank you for this - I will investigate and see if we can do this now.

 

[cragmaid]

The only thing I can think of to help, is if you can produce old statements and records to show that this is your Mum's money and that you have not contributed or benefitted from the account. A covering letter from Mum probably won't help, but it can't hurt.
I am sorry about this when it was all done with the best of intents.

 

[FifiMo]

I have no doubt that the arrangements you have made have been done with the best of intentions by you and your mum. From that point of view it should be very easy to clear the matter up with the DWP. Don't forget to take the unopened bank cards with you to show them that they have never been used and tell them that they are welcome to check that this is the case. I would also point out to them that you are not receiving any other monies and are living within your means on the benefits that you receive. Yes there might have been other ways of doing things but your mum put you on the account - you didn't do that. Yes it might make it appear that you are falling foul of of the 'rules' but my question to them would be - well what else could I have done? If them being joint accounts is the problem then offer to be taken off them and to come to an alternative arrangement that they will be happy with, but point out that this was always being done to help your mum - not you.

Good luck and stay calm.

Fiona

 

[dottyd]

I have no doubt that the arrangements you have made have been done with the best of intentions by you and your mum. From that point of view it should be very easy to clear the matter up with the DWP. Don't forget to take the unopened bank cards with you to show them that they have never been used and tell them that they are welcome to check that this is the case. I would also point out to them that you are not receiving any other monies and are living within your means on the benefits that you receive. Yes there might have been other ways of doing things but your mum put you on the account - you didn't do that. Yes it might make it appear that you are falling foul of of the 'rules' but my question to them would be - well what else could I have done? If them being joint accounts is the problem then offer to be taken off them and to come to an alternative arrangement that they will be happy with, but point out that this was always being done to help your mum - not you.

Good luck and stay calm.

Fiona

Good post.

If you are telling us the truth and I believe I see no reason for the DWP to disbelieve you.

Take your mum with you if need be. Take as much info as you can.

Make a point of mentioning that they are the ERROR squad and this has been done in error and in good faith with the best of intentions by your mum.

Your mum is still alive. It's her money.

Think of them as being nice people with decent lives and all the problems we have. They are not scary monsters.

Point out that this has been done in error and how can they help you to sort it out.

I'm sure you will be fine.

 

[Pickle20]

Gosh last thing you need, I'm sure if you explain it to them as you have to use things will be ok. In terms of the POA like everyone has said you can use it as and when, mummy says get me £100 out but then mummy feels she can speak to council tax etc, so it's as and when required for both of you. Best use is obviously when capacity is an issue but it's something i am thinking of doing at 27 as I've seen too many problems when illness eg brain injuries occur and then on top of dealing with illness/trauma you end up sorting finances all the time.

 

[24fan]

Just wanted to say a huge thank you for all the comments and help. Hopefully - fingers crossed - I can sort all of this out now but the stress and upset hasn't helped either my mother or I. To be wrongly accused, even to this extent, to law abiding people is really shocking to the system.

We'll see ...