Moving Mum in?

[60's child]

x

 

[Noorza]

My only concern is looking at the worst case scenario: If the funds run out and you can no longer care for her at home, it could be seen as depravation of assets. If you are sure she will be able to stay self funding for as long as is necessary or that you will be able to keep her at home for as long as necessary it will work.

 

[copsham]

Worst case scenarios

Hello sixtieschild,
My view is that it could work brilliantly, with the level of support and the money between you.

However my short experience of mother at home with carers was that your home gets to feel like a public place. The main carer who you get used to might be off sick and someone you don't know comes in. Thy let the community nurse in, they then ring you and you don't even know they have been in your house. The carer and the GP may have discussions. You want a day off at home but cannot do so etc etc. It was a very weird feeling.

The other aspect is safety. If your mother starts leaving the front door open, befriending strangers, leaving gas taps on, leaving the water running, getting angry etc will this always be manageable?

Finally can all of you cope with potential screaming in the night, mother wandering into bedrooms, dealing with double incontinence etc.

The double incontinence was the last straw for us even though we had a live in carer.

My mother is really happy in her nursing home, says she feels safe, "don't have to worry about food for the weekend" and "the girls are very nice". i am glad we tried keeping her at home and moving her in to nursing home was very emotional but now 15 months later I know it was the right thing to do.

You sound such a lovely considerate family I wish you well what ever your decision X

In the future you may have to go to the Court of Protection in relation to her assets eg selling her house if she does not have capacity and you do not have an LPA.

 

[Witzend]

Have you got a power of attorney set up? If not you should get it done ASAP, assuming your mother still has capacity to understand and agree to it. As people deteriorate they may become suspicious of their nearest and dearest and fail to see the need, since in their own minds there is nothing wrong with them.

It is true that you are not obliged to involve social services if someone is entirely self funded. However it is as well to bear in mind that while you would want to care for your mother at home until the end, and this may well work fine for you, some people who fully intend to do this find that as the disease progresses they are unable to cope any more. A lot will depend on how 'easy' and compliant the person is - and this can vary so much - e.g. there may be incontinence coupled with a refusal to wash or be washed, they may start wandering a lot at night and this can be exhausting for family in the same house, unless you have one big enough for a separate area plus enough to pay for a night-time carer.

If any money arising from the sale or rental of her house is used solely to pay for her care, and I guess a justified share of living-cost bills, I do not see that this could be seen as deprivation of assets, and unless the money runs out (and you do at some point need to involve SS) you will presumably not have to account for it, except of course that anyone holding power of attorney must be able to show that all expenditure has been in the person's best interests.

I do hope it all works out well for you.

 

[Jessbow]

Do you have children, especially young children? Think very hard if you do. To be honest I'd leave her next door, to keep their/your own space.

 

[meme]

good luck to you..there is no reason why this should not work for you and your mother.....

 

[Onlyme]

Do you have children, especially young children? Think very hard if you do. To be honest I'd leave her next door, to keep their/your own space.

I agree. You wouldn't be having your Mum living with you but Dementia in all it's forms.

Lights and TV on all times of the night, things being turned up or off on the stove, midnight cooking, freezer being switched off (most things being switched off), TV settings messed up so she gets upset, phone calls to the Police as she has been left alone (even if you are in the house), never having time to sit down and talk to your OH or kids, no spontaneity. Mum may not recognise where she is and cry to go home or go next door in the night to banging on the door to be let in or report them as squatters.

I could go on. I would also suggest that you spend 48 hours with your Mum in her house. You won't know what she is really like until you do.

 

[Nebiroth]

My only concern is looking at the worst case scenario: If the funds run out and you can no longer care for her at home, it could be seen as depravation of assets. If you are sure she will be able to stay self funding for as long as is necessary or that you will be able to keep her at home for as long as necessary it will work.

Deprivation of assets is really when people give away money or assets such a valuables or property, or spend them in unusual ways, all with the intention of stopping the assets/money being used to fund their care.

I doubt very much that if assets are used to fund care would be regarded as a deprivation of asset.

Indeed, it woul dbe argues that things like renting out or selling property to fund care is exactly what would happen if someone were a self-funder in a care home.

It's not unreasonable that someone should rent out their property or sell and use the cash to fund care - even if that care is in a family member's home.

Giving away the money or suddenly going on luxury holidays or buying expensive antiques as gifts - those would potentially be DOA's.

The best thing to do would be to take legal advice from someone experienced in this specialised area of law - but remember, ultimately, it is a judgement by the local authority. They have a great deal of latitude and it's up to them to determine what they regard as a DOA or otherwise.

 

[Moonflower]

Make sure you have PoA, if your mum still has capacity to give this - or deputyship if she doesn't. Otherwise I think you may find that you don't have the legal authority to sell her house, and that she doesn't have the legal capacity to do it.

 

[60's child]

My only concern is looking at the worst case scenario: If the funds run out and you can no longer care for her at home, it could be seen as depravation of assets. If you are sure she will be able to stay self funding for as long as is necessary or that you will be able to keep her at home for as long as necessary it will work.

Thank you Noozra
I cannot guarantee that the funds would not run out. I suppose it depends how long Mum lives Would it be deprivation of asstets if the money from the sale of her property were used solely for her care? We would have a paper trail for everything to prove that there was no misuse of funds.

 

[60's child]

Hello sixtieschild,
My view is that it could work brilliantly, with the level of support and the money between you.

However my short experience of mother at home with carers was that your home gets to feel like a public place. The main carer who you get used to might be off sick and someone you don't know comes in. Thy let the community nurse in, they then ring you and you don't even know they have been in your house. The carer and the GP may have discussions. You want a day off at home but cannot do so etc etc. It was a very weird feeling.

The other aspect is safety. If your mother starts leaving the front door open, befriending strangers, leaving gas taps on, leaving the water running, getting angry etc will this always be manageable?

Finally can all of you cope with potential screaming in the night, mother wandering into bedrooms, dealing with double incontinence etc.

The double incontinence was the last straw for us even though we had a live in carer.

My mother is really happy in her nursing home, says she feels safe, "don't have to worry about food for the weekend" and "the girls are very nice". i am glad we tried keeping her at home and moving her in to nursing home was very emotional but now 15 months later I know it was the right thing to do.

You sound such a lovely considerate family I wish you well what ever your decision X

In the future you may have to go to the Court of Protection in relation to her assets eg selling her house if she does not have capacity and you do not have an LPA.

Thank you copsham
We are in the lucky position that we are pulling down our horrible house and in the process of drawing up plans for a new build. We hope to have a downstairs bedroom, bathroom and a small sitting room for mum that would be used when there was a carer here so hopefully we would still have some privacy. Mum would not be left on her own if she did move in with us. I do undertsand what you mean about deterioration/ incontinece etc I feel conflicted on what is best for Mum.

 

[60's child]

Have you got a power of attorney set up? If not you should get it done ASAP, assuming your mother still has capacity to understand and agree to it. As people deteriorate they may become suspicious of their nearest and dearest and fail to see the need, since in their own minds there is nothing wrong with them.

It is true that you are not obliged to involve social services if someone is entirely self funded. However it is as well to bear in mind that while you would want to care for your mother at home until the end, and this may well work fine for you, some people who fully intend to do this find that as the disease progresses they are unable to cope any more. A lot will depend on how 'easy' and compliant the person is - and this can vary so much - e.g. there may be incontinence coupled with a refusal to wash or be washed, they may start wandering a lot at night and this can be exhausting for family in the same house, unless you have one big enough for a separate area plus enough to pay for a night-time carer.

If any money arising from the sale or rental of her house is used solely to pay for her care, and I guess a justified share of living-cost bills, I do not see that this could be seen as deprivation of assets, and unless the money runs out (and you do at some point need to involve SS) you will presumably not have to account for it, except of course that anyone holding power of attorney must be able to show that all expenditure has been in the person's best interests.

I do hope it all works out well for you.

Thank you witzend
Yes, we have power of attorney already thankfully. Any money of Mums would be used solely for her care. We would not need to charge her for food etc so it should be easy to prove where the money went. Its all a bit daunting but the thought of a care home is daunting as well. Rock and a hard place come to mind

 

[60's child]

Do you have children, especially young children? Think very hard if you do. To be honest I'd leave her next door, to keep their/your own space.

Thank you Jessbow
Unfortunatley we were never able to have children so it is just me and my husband at home. I agree that it woulld not be a viable option if children were involved.
We plan to support Mum living next door for as long as she remains safe then it is care home or in with us...

 

[60's child]

good luck to you..there is no reason why this should not work for you and your mother.....

Thank you meme
We do feel it is worth a try

 

[60's child]

I agree. You wouldn't be having your Mum living with you but Dementia in all it's forms.

Lights and TV on all times of the night, things being turned up or off on the stove, midnight cooking, freezer being switched off (most things being switched off), TV settings messed up so she gets upset, phone calls to the Police as she has been left alone (even if you are in the house), never having time to sit down and talk to your OH or kids, no spontaneity. Mum may not recognise where she is and cry to go home or go next door in the night to banging on the door to be let in or report them as squatters.

I could go on. I would also suggest that you spend 48 hours with your Mum in her house. You won't know what she is really like until you do.

Thank you onlyme
Mum spends all her time with us when we are at home anyway but I do understand what you mean. It is very different when it is 24 hours a day.

 

[60's child]

Deprivation of assets is really when people give away money or assets such a valuables or property, or spend them in unusual ways, all with the intention of stopping the assets/money being used to fund their care.

I doubt very much that if assets are used to fund care would be regarded as a deprivation of asset.

Indeed, it woul dbe argues that things like renting out or selling property to fund care is exactly what would happen if someone were a self-funder in a care home.

It's not unreasonable that someone should rent out their property or sell and use the cash to fund care - even if that care is in a family member's home.

Giving away the money or suddenly going on luxury holidays or buying expensive antiques as gifts - those would potentially be DOA's.

The best thing to do would be to take legal advice from someone experienced in this specialised area of law - but remember, ultimately, it is a judgement by the local authority. They have a great deal of latitude and it's up to them to determine what they regard as a DOA or otherwise.

Thank you Nebroith
That is good advice. I get worried about doing the wrong thing by trying to do the right thing...

 

[60's child]

Make sure you have PoA, if your mum still has capacity to give this - or deputyship if she doesn't. Otherwise I think you may find that you don't have the legal authority to sell her house, and that she doesn't have the legal capacity to do it.

Thank you Moonflower
Poa already in place thankfully. Luckily that was one of the first bits of good advice I was given when I joined the forum

 

[Owly]

I don't see how using the rental/sale income from Mum's house for her personal care could be called deprivation of assets at all. If you keep a paper trail of the care invoices, you should be well covered against accusations of that.

If your rebuilding plans mean that Mum's part of the house would be self-contained and you could stop her and her carers from accessing your part of the house while you were out, then that would work too.

Another thing that people with dementia still like to do is "tidy up". That means if she has access to your rooms and possessions while you're not there, you could find things get moved to different places with much resulting frustration looking for them.

What would worry me, about my own Mum, is hygiene! Knowing that she doesn't wipe herself properly on the loo, or wash her hands unless prompted, no way would I want her to be able to wander round my house touching anything and especially not doing any "tidying up" in my kitchen.

In that respect, a way for Mum or the carer to make drinks/snacks without having access to your own kitchen might be thought about?

 

[CJinUSA]

Dear 60s Child,

I think your plan sounds brilliant. We have had my mother living with us since 2008. In that year, it was sort of a trial basis. Then in 2009, she was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, and it was clear she could no longer be on her own. My husband (who can handle construction jobs) re-made a parlor room (it's a large-ish old house) so that she could have a primary location on the first floor, with private bath/shower, and access to the rest of the house (including the dogs, whom she loves).

Sure - you have people in your home, interruptions in your life, and a constant feeling of responsibility. But you don't have social workers making decisions for your parent, you know the doctors and lawyers who are tending to her, and you have a good sense of her financial status.

But the biggest gain is a feeling of self-worth - that here you are, extending yourself, so your loved parent spends her last years with as much dignity and goodwill as she could possibly feel. She will feel loved and cared for, and she will be socialized with family and friends. We have gone to having daily caregivers come in for the breakfast meals and shower. My work is such that I can do it at home 2 or 3 days a week, and now that it's summer and a lighter load for me, I have reduced the caregiver hours. I get to have quality time with my mother in my home rather than having to go see her at some other location.

Many can't see how this could work. Indeed, one of my co-workers has said to me that it was "career suicide" having my mother stay. In fact, I'm about to be promoted. So having her here, while it has taken its toll on my sleep, has actually enhanced my sense of self-worth and my productivity, and this is getting recognized by others.

Good luck with all of this. It sounds as if you've sorted it out, and you are ready. You might want to consult with a lawyer (we did) to make sure you have thought of all the relevant issues. It is generous of you to do this. Wait till you see how good you feel about being there when your mother most needs you.

 

[CJinUSA]

I wanted to add something about cleanliness. My mother's rooms are spotless, and she occasionally has double incontinence. The kitchen, which the carers use, is always cleaned up when I arrive home from work (when it was just hubby, I used to arrive home to scores of dishes!). For my mother's toileting issues (she no longer knows to - or how to - wipe herself), we use disposable gloves and baby wipes for sensitive skin, disposing of them in trash along with any soiled Depends panty product. Her room smells fresh (air freshener), and it is very clean, better than if I were taking care of her by myself full time (not working outside my home), because the carers have been trained about how to take care of such things. So the idea of having someone in your kitchen who might not be clean? That is most certainly not the case in this situation. The best part is, I am able to pick the carers who come in. We had to let 2 of them go - just not the right fit. And the three who switch off now are just superb. It is really working quite well. If at a later point your mother needs round the clock care, maybe then might be the time for a different arrangement (we will always have my mother here, I believe). Good luck.