Buying the property to help towards funds.

KIM62

Registered User
Apr 12, 2008
51
0
Yorkshire
My sister in law has been receiving full time care since 2007. She has Vascular Dementia and On set Parkinsons. Her savings are down to having enough for one more year of funding before all gone, and she only has private and state pension + AA for funding.

My husband has actually cashed in a ISA to help top up her funds, and cover the mess the social services caused (thats another story). We have receipts for these payments.

The only asset my sister in law has is her house. It was on the market for nearly 2 years, with no interest shown, even after two price drops to tempt buyers. My husband and I decided that we would pay rent to my sister in law and at least take over the costs of council tax and insurance, to save deducting more from her savings to cover these costs.

The fact is now her house will have to go on the market, and no doubt at a much reduced price, but doubt there will be takers. My hubby and I would be prepare to buy the house, which was the family home but left to his sister as she never married and remained with parents.
Taking into account he would be classed as one of her creditors on the sale of any property, he would be prepared to deduct that amount from the purchase of the house, plus we would then come in with a cash payment. With both these amounts combined we could only purchase the house at 50% of its market value, but it would be a quick cash injection to her account which would certainly be there for the remainder of her days. What I really want to know does this seem legal and above board. I would just like to add, that in her Will my husband is left a share of the house between him and his children, and they would be willing to sell their below market value shares to us. Would it not be better Sister in Law benefits now, then to do without.

Please any helpful sources here would be appreciated.

Finally, my husband and I between us are not only paying the appropriate rent as advized by a agent, but also covering additional expenses of spendy money (£400 a year) and clothes purchases as required to save the depleting of savings too fast.
 

Blueheather

Registered User
Feb 18, 2013
44
0
Scotland
I'm afraid i haven't got any help to offer you but i'm sure other people will be along soon with some helpful ideas or suggestions.

You're obviously trying to do the best for your sister-in- law, so i wish you good luck.
 

nicoise

Registered User
Jun 29, 2010
1,806
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Dear kim62,

Do you/your husband hold an LPA for your SIL's finances? I'm guessing you must do for managing her care and house payments as they stand, and I also take it that you live in the house yourselves (from mention of rent payments)?

Your issue would be to do with the old chestnut of deprivation of assets, and whether your house purchase offer would be seen as the best price SIL might hope to achieve, as of course as LPA any financial dealings would have to be with her best interests in mind.

It would be a good move to seek legal advice about your proposed purchase, and would be necessary for a change of title anyway. It may be that the money raised through selling her house will provide funds to keep her in care for her lifetime; but if her funds were to fall below the threshold and LA funding sought, all financial dealings would have to be clearly documented and accounted for.
 

nicoise

Registered User
Jun 29, 2010
1,806
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I also meant to add....

whatever is in SIL's Will does not apply until after her death, so none of the people mentioned in it "own" anything bequeathed (eg the house) until after she has died, and only if that asset is still in her estate at the date of death, and still held after debts have been paid by the estate.

I only mention this because you say your husband's children would be willing to sell their shares to him - they don't have any shares unless the house is still owned by her when she dies.

If your husband buys the house from his sister, he will own it, and the children will not be involved, and cannot inherit a share of an asset that has been sold before death.
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
Perhaps I've misunderstood what you are saying but if you propose to purchase the house for less than the market value, even after taking into account any money that might be due to you, then the LA will almost certainly consider this as deprivation of assets.

More importantly, the court of protection and/or the office of the public guardian would have to consider this as potentially asset stripping (although I don't think this is a term they use). You simply cannot, even for the best of motives, buy a person's property for substantially below the market value. In fact, in most cases even if you were paying full market rate the court might well expect someone else to act for your SIL in the matter to ensure that she was being taken advantage of.

I think if you want to do this you are going to have to find a way to pay what anyone else would pay.

The normal procedure would be to apply for a deferred payment agreement for the house from the LA. Have you investigated that?
 

KIM62

Registered User
Apr 12, 2008
51
0
Yorkshire
Thank you everyone for your replies, apologies for not responding sooner.
My husband and I have talked and decided that legal advice would be sought, and if it seemed that we would be 'taking advantage' then we will move out of the property and cease paying rent, therefore the powers that be can decide who will pay the requirements still on an empty property and how her carehome fees will be covered. And as she will have no cash assets, it will seem interesting to see how The Office of Public Guardianship will get their fees annually along with the insurances required so shes not 'robbed', although in my opinion they've had their lions share over the years and done nothing to earn it. Sorry thats an additional rant not meant to anyone on here. But between the OPG and Social Services they've taken funds and we have all the worry.
Once again thank you for your advice.

Kind regards
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
0
Near Southampton
The Office of Public Guardianship will get their fees annually along with the insurances required so shes not 'robbed', although in my opinion they've had their lions share over the years and done nothing to earn it.

This comment sounds as though you have Deputyship rather than LPA or EPA as i wasn't aware that these involved ongoing fees and insurances whilst Deputyship does.
If this is the case, then as Jennifer suggests, you will definitely have to appoint a Trustee to represent your SIL in the sale of the house. I had to do this to sell a holiday chalet belonging to my husband and myself. This also involves a further application fee to the CoP. I think you are wise to consult a solicitor.
 

FifiMo

Registered User
Feb 10, 2010
4,703
0
Wiltshire
Kim,

It is worth you asking a lawyer to do the research etc with the OPG to determine whether there are any avenues that you can take with their blessing. Folks always talk about market value as they recall it during the housing boom. In a depressed market, market value is determined by the value some is prepared to pay. You have had the house on the open market and reduced the price, so the amount you are prepared to pay, plus monies due to you, may not be far off market value anyway.

At the other end of the spectrum, if your SIL runs out of liquid assets then the Local Authority an pick up the cost and put a charge on the house. This in itself can deter buyers as they consider the this represents a further legal issue for them to deal with, irrespective of the fact that it shouldn't have any impact.

I don't know what the deficit is in the care home fees outside of the income that your SIL receives on a monthly basis. If the income from renting is covering the deficit just now, then is one of the solutions to continue to rent the property either yourselves or to another tenant?

It is clear that you are trying to find a solution that benefits your SIL and it could be that some of your ideas might work. Only the OPG can tell you what would or wouldn't be acceptable.

Fiona
 

KIM62

Registered User
Apr 12, 2008
51
0
Yorkshire
This comment sounds as though you have Deputyship rather than LPA or EPA as i wasn't aware that these involved ongoing fees and insurances whilst Deputyship does.

My husband tried for LPA but due to the mistakes between SIL G.P & Solicitor,by the time the papers were finally sumitted correctly. The OPG decided that they could not award my husband LPA as they felt SIL was not capable of making that decision now, and therefore he was awarded EPA. This in turn requires an annual administration fee and another annual 'insurance' fee which combined totals just over £500 a year. Her savings now has depleted from £80,000 to just under £5,000 since 2007.
The Social Services were brought in, and only allowed her a short time of free fee payments, after that they were loaning her £124 a week towards her nursing home fees. Her nursing home fees dropped from £400 a week being private payer, to £376 L.A charges. She claims A.A but during the Social Services intervention this was stopped, as A.A is only awarded to people who are fully self funding, and the benefits felt she wasn't but after months of trying to get the message across to benefits that S.S. was only loaning the money NOT GIVING the money, and getting someone from S.S to contact A.A. to confirm this, the A.A was finally reinbursed and back payment paid. But for those months there was this shortfall that is when my hubby and I stepped in with extra fundings, and he also paid off S.S because we felt at the end of the day they basically were owning the family home with the constant weekly loan. Finally, we are in the process of seeing if there is a claim to be made against the local PCT to see if there are any fundings SIL can reclaim, as the doctors took the decision that she needed to be placed in full time care. But this has been ongoing since august last year, and its not the quick solution we can get at the moment.
Sorry if I have gone on a bit about this, but I thought I would tell the story as it is, and hopefully if anyone is in this same predicament you can get some info from our experience to help you through yours.
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
0
Near Southampton
The OPG decided that they could not award my husband LPA as they felt SIL was not capable of making that decision now, and therefore he was awarded EPA.

Kim, that still sounds like Deputyship. EPA is the fore-runner to LPA and so would hardly be likely to be awarded after attempting LPA. EPA doesn't invlolve insurance and overseeing costs either. If someone is deemed not capable of making the decision to award a power of attourney, then the Court of Protection takes the place of an attourney and a Court Deputy is appointed, i.e. Deputyship.

I am a Deputy but others will know more about Enduring Power of Attourney as it has not been applicable since Lasting Power of Attourney was introduced a few years back, though if already awarded, can still be used.

As I believe this was the same time as Deputyship was brought in, others will know if it is possible that EPA might have been possble without mental capacity at that time but that still doesn't explain the ongoing insurance and fees.

Regarding full time care and NHS payment, I wish you luck but the two don't necessarily go together as many of us have discovered. CHC funding is only awarded when certain categories of need are satisfied.
I hope you manage to resolve your problems.
 

susiesue

Registered User
Mar 15, 2007
2,607
0
Herts
I had a similar situation when my late husband moved into a care home.
Between us we owned three rental properties (our pension) but the only way I could release my husband's share of the funds in these properties(to pay his care home fees) was to attempt to buy his half of each property, one by one.
I had POA and thought I could simply put the purchases into action. How wrong was I!!!
Despite being his wife and despite the fact that the money was urgently required to pay for my husband's care home fees, the COP put the matter into the hands of an extremely expensive Official Solicitor who was to act as my husband's 'litigation friend'!!! in order to ascertain that I was not in fact 'taking advantage of my husband:eek:', even though I was his wife and attorney!!!
Whilst I realise these steps were taken to protect my husband from his 'unscrupulous' wife, in the end I was forced to pay the 'litigation friend' £1,200 in fees!!!
 

susiesue

Registered User
Mar 15, 2007
2,607
0
Herts
....just read Saffie's earlier thread.
My husband had an EPA and he had to be deemed unable to make a decision by the GP before it was put into force.
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
0
Near Southampton
....
just read Saffie's earlier thread.
My husband had an EPA and he had to be deemed unable to make a decision by the GP before it was put into force.

Yes, I did say that others might know if that was how it worked for EPA and before LPA replaced it as I believe that Deputyship came in at roughly the same time, so thank you for confirming that.
I'm not sure whether LPA is the same for being put into force but I know one has to have mental capacity to prepare it. Was that not the case for EPA then? As I said, it was before my experience and I am not really au fait with it but do know about Deputyship.

However, did/does EPA also involve annual supervision fees and an insurance payments which Deputyship does? I know that LPA doesn't. This is why I thought that Kim must be referring to Deputyship - and I know that a Trustee has to be appointed to represent the relevant person in a sale of property. However, apart from the £400 CoP application, it didn't cost as I was able to appoint a friend, with no problem.
 

geum123

Registered User
May 20, 2009
4,604
0
Kim62,
Has your sister in law been assessed to see if she may qualify for NHS Continuing Care?
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
Yes, you needed to have capacity to make an EPA and no, there are no supervisory fees associated with it. I feel sure that the poster mispoke when they said they had been awarded "EPA" and in fact they were made a deputy.
 

KIM62

Registered User
Apr 12, 2008
51
0
Yorkshire
Big Apologies...

First of all big apologies to everyone. My hubby delved into the mountainous paperwork and it would seem his role, as awarded to him, is to be Deputy. So, this is the one with regards to paying administration funds and annual insurances as I stated in an earlier message.

He had a meeting yesterday with someone from the COP/OPG, the first may I add that this legal meeting has taken place since they started taking funds in 2008. Hubby was told that his role is to take the place of whatever his sister would authorize.

Now having said that, every time my hubby has to arrange a change in a standing order / direct debit with the Halifax Bank (sisters choice of banking for years) he has to go into town with 3 forms of ID. The minute this Deputry role was awarded to him they closed off the internet access to bank account, which would have made it easier for my hubby to check on personal finances and everything was flowing.

The gentleman from COP/OPG (whichever office Im not too sure, because to be honest this is all getting a little on my nerves now) stated that there should be no reason the Halifax has to do this, but unless it is challenged in court they will continue to do so. He also adviced my hubby that because he is over 60 years of age, and we are paying rent to SIL. If her cash assets depleted to the point that she has to resort back to full funding (or a loan as it would really be) from Social Services, by law they can not evict us for the house to go on the market to pay them back and they would have to wait until her Will was made available for them to become one of the creditors.

Once again I apologise for earlier mistake. Truth is I have so many things going on in my life, personal carer to a disabled relative, making sure my husband doesn't take on too much of the burden of his sisters financial worries and care. Then my own personal medical problems, I just feel inside Im all over the place at the moment:eek:

Thank you once again for your helpful comments and understanding

Kind regards
Kim
 

Saffie

Registered User
Mar 26, 2011
22,513
0
Near Southampton
Once again I apologise for earlier mistake. Truth is I have so many things going on in my life, personal carer to a disabled relative, making sure my husband doesn't take on too much of the burden of his sisters financial worries and care. Then my own personal medical problems, I just feel inside Im all over the place at the moment
No need to apologise Kim, most of us have felt like that and still do! It always seem to land on us when we are at our most vulnerable and can deal with it least! Good luck.
 

assistance12

Registered User
Apr 16, 2013
16
0
I've just joined the site and started the thread on property valuation today under CRAG. If anyone has read any of CRAG well done to them - it's huge and hard going!! It doesn't fail to amaze me how cumbersome our 'benefit' and 'care' system is and how it seems to penalise the very people who are trying to help their relatives and friends. I've recently taken over all my mother's affairs following my father's death and the hoops to jump through even with an existing registered EPA is amazing. Good luck to you, hope you find the right solution. I've spoken to both a specialist financial advisor and specialist solicitor. Often, esp with fin advisors the first meeting is free to discuss generic issues. May be worth looking into this. I managed to glean sufficient information that I don't, at the moment, need to pay for a further consultation and the fin advisor was more than happy with that. As she says, most need more so it off-sets some that don't.