Hi,this is my first time on here so I am sorry if I am not very good at this. My Dad has dementia and at the moment is in hospital under section 3 of MHA, where he has been for 4 months. I am struggling to cope and understand everything but I have been told Dad will need to go into a nursing home where he will be entitled to funding under section 117. I have found a couple of nice homes but have been told they are too expensive and the ones I have been told are suitable by the Local Authority are not very good, with bad reports and also are further away from where I live. I understood that section 117 meant Dads fees would be paid in full. Does anyone have any experience of this situation and advice on what to do, I would really appreciate it. Thank you.
117 funding
- Thread starter Ali71
- Start date
Welcome to Talking Point. I noticed that you had not had a reply yet so thought I would start by saying that there are quite a few posts on this forum concerning 117 funding. I know because I was in the same position as you last year and had to do some research.
There must be a search facility on here somewhere, but I'm blowed if I can see it. Anyway, have a search thorough and maybe someone a bit more savvy thatn me can tell you how to search for a particular subject.
All I can tell you is that the LA concerned will only pay £x per week/month for your Dad's care and in my experience, not a penny more. I would ask your Social Worker for a list of "suitable" care homes and stress that you need them to be within travelling distance, for you to visit your Dad. Is it a care home that he needs or a nursing home? Ask the SW or his doctor at the hospital.
There is also information on line and at the local library on care homes in your area. The CQC reports are useful as a guide, but you need to visit the care homes and see for yourself how they are run. You will get a feel for a place. Always turn up unannounced and if you can, take someone with you for a second opinion. Write down the questions that you need/want to ask.
Good luck and don't let anyone push you into a decision that you are not happy with. It is important to get the right home for your Dad, you don't want him to have to move again.
You should get some more replies and help soon.
There must be a search facility on here somewhere, but I'm blowed if I can see it. Anyway, have a search thorough and maybe someone a bit more savvy thatn me can tell you how to search for a particular subject.
All I can tell you is that the LA concerned will only pay £x per week/month for your Dad's care and in my experience, not a penny more. I would ask your Social Worker for a list of "suitable" care homes and stress that you need them to be within travelling distance, for you to visit your Dad. Is it a care home that he needs or a nursing home? Ask the SW or his doctor at the hospital.
There is also information on line and at the local library on care homes in your area. The CQC reports are useful as a guide, but you need to visit the care homes and see for yourself how they are run. You will get a feel for a place. Always turn up unannounced and if you can, take someone with you for a second opinion. Write down the questions that you need/want to ask.
Good luck and don't let anyone push you into a decision that you are not happy with. It is important to get the right home for your Dad, you don't want him to have to move again.
You should get some more replies and help soon.
We have just gone through the discharge process under 117 funding . We were lucky to find a nice residential home that specialises in Dementia care and that suits my father at the moment ( he is doing really well).
The home we chose interestingly enough was not the most expensive but had a great atmosphere and really careing staff
Luckly enough it has been totally funded under the 117 funding but then it does not ask for extra money to the council contracted rate.
I think I would have a long talk with the SW involved and expain why you dont want certain homes and see what they say.
I hope you manage to get things sorted
The home we chose interestingly enough was not the most expensive but had a great atmosphere and really careing staff
Luckly enough it has been totally funded under the 117 funding but then it does not ask for extra money to the council contracted rate.I think I would have a long talk with the SW involved and expain why you dont want certain homes and see what they say.
I hope you manage to get things sorted
keep going
You need to not bow to pressure. I ended up with my Dad going into a home that social services recommended and were pushing for. The home wasn't right for my Dad and he was unhappy there. I stood my ground, not like me but I guess I was at my wits end, and they moved Dad into a home that Id found and one that was more suited to his needs.
Good luck.
You need to not bow to pressure. I ended up with my Dad going into a home that social services recommended and were pushing for. The home wasn't right for my Dad and he was unhappy there. I stood my ground, not like me but I guess I was at my wits end, and they moved Dad into a home that Id found and one that was more suited to his needs.
Good luck.
Please dont sign for you the family to pay any top ups if a more expensive home is chosen. . The recipient should be able to pay for this out of their own pension / funds which they keep(although you may find this difficult to achieve as SS will only pay for the care they deem necessary to keep your parent safe not happy so this is classed as an extra) the rules get i bit difficult with this one.
In our case mum needed nursing/dementia and there really was very little chioce around anyway. The one we found was at the council rate.
And she is not happy, but I dont think she would be happy anywhere.
In our case mum needed nursing/dementia and there really was very little chioce around anyway. The one we found was at the council rate.
And she is not happy, but I dont think she would be happy anywhere.
Thank you. I will try my best, i am not very good at sticking up for myself, but your words have given me encouragement, I really appreciate it.
Thank you for replying. I am so sorry to hear your mum is not happy, it must be very difficult for you, I hope in time she will settle and be more comfortable. Thank you for your advice, it is all helping me in dealing with this horrible situation. I hope life gets easier for you soon.
I am no good at sticking up for myself either, but really you are sticking up for your dad, not yourself. And if you have power of attorney you are pretty well legally obliged to do this. Its still hard though because you end up scared if you make a fuss they will take it out on your parent. I dont mean they would do anything nasty, but sometimes its not doing things I fear, ie excluding or ignoring. And with mum so difficult I think I would try and avoid dealing with her if I could!
Hi Ali71,
I don't think it is totally accurate to say that under s117 the local authority will automatically pay all of the bill for your dad's care. They way it worked for my mum was that the hospital where she was detained and the social worker advised us (my father and me) at a meeting before she was discharged from the hospital where she was on section 3 that we should nominate 3 nursing homes. We were advised that if these charged fees below the local authority rate (£565 per week where we were at the time plus the £108 per week NHS nursing care contribution = £673 per week or around £35k a year) then the local authority would pay all the bill. But if the fees had exceeded that limit then we could have found ourselves having to arrange payment of top-up fees. But my understanding is that if the only homes which could meet my mother's needs had been homes that charged more than that, then the local authority would have been obliged to pay that bill in full. Had my mum's needs dictated she went into a specific home we would have had to fight that corner. In the event we found one where the fees fell under the cost limits. I think Karjo's advice is good - don't bow to pressure or be scared of the local authority. If you believe your dad needs a specific home, fight for that. Also contact the Alzhiemer's society helpline on 0300 222 11 22, as they will be able to put you in touch with people who know exactly how this works. You may also need specialist advice. My father and I counsulted a specialist solicitor and it was useful in setting his mind at rest.
Wirralson
I don't think it is totally accurate to say that under s117 the local authority will automatically pay all of the bill for your dad's care. They way it worked for my mum was that the hospital where she was detained and the social worker advised us (my father and me) at a meeting before she was discharged from the hospital where she was on section 3 that we should nominate 3 nursing homes. We were advised that if these charged fees below the local authority rate (£565 per week where we were at the time plus the £108 per week NHS nursing care contribution = £673 per week or around £35k a year) then the local authority would pay all the bill. But if the fees had exceeded that limit then we could have found ourselves having to arrange payment of top-up fees. But my understanding is that if the only homes which could meet my mother's needs had been homes that charged more than that, then the local authority would have been obliged to pay that bill in full. Had my mum's needs dictated she went into a specific home we would have had to fight that corner. In the event we found one where the fees fell under the cost limits. I think Karjo's advice is good - don't bow to pressure or be scared of the local authority. If you believe your dad needs a specific home, fight for that. Also contact the Alzhiemer's society helpline on 0300 222 11 22, as they will be able to put you in touch with people who know exactly how this works. You may also need specialist advice. My father and I counsulted a specialist solicitor and it was useful in setting his mind at rest.
Wirralson
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Sadly I do not have power of attorney for dad. This all happened very quickly, dad went from watching my daughter in a football match on the Sunday to being sectioned on the Friday. We knew dad was ill and had tried on several occasions to agree to power of attorney but he kept refusing and in denial about what was wrong. I understand why he was like this, he was scared and confused. We are going through the court of protection now but it is really complicated. I know what you mean about making a fuss but dad is so down and depressed now I am becoming stronger because ad you say you do it for your loved one.
You cannot and should not pay top up fees associated with Section 117 aftercare. This link explains things quite well...http://www.mind.org.uk/mental_health_a-z/7851_aftercare_under_section_117_of_the_mental_health_act
I suggest you give Mind a call as they are more used to dealing with this issue and they have legal advisors etc available to advise you.
Fiona
I suggest you give Mind a call as they are more used to dealing with this issue and they have legal advisors etc available to advise you.
Fiona
i was advised by MInd to contact a solicitor when we were asked to pay top up fees for my mum. SS quickly backtracked but by then the nursing home place was lost. To be honest I think they genuinely did not understand how it all worked and the lawyer said it is fairly uncommon.
It was agreed in the end that if a nursing home place came up that was near to us so we could visit (ie meet her needs) that they would pay the required rate if there was nothing else suitable available at that time in our vicinity.
The dementia sufferer should not be prejudiced by being kept in hospital until a place at the EPR rate is found. If a suitable place becomes available at a dearer rate then I think they have to pay the dearer rate if they cannot offer an alternative.
If two suitable places are available and one is preferred that offers a benefit that is not part of the care plan, but is more expensive, then a top up may be required. I think in this case it would be able to be paid by the service user as it is an extra to their care requirements. However the recipient would probably not have the capacity to make this decision so this is where it can get tricky for the councils.I think this is where power of attorney for health and finance would be of assistance.
I hope this makes sense - it took me a while to get my head round it. To be honest if the service user can keep all their money, pensions etc then I think it more than fair that some of their pension can be used for extras to make the person happier and more comfortable. I suppose it just depends what sort of home you can find, and I know some have shared bedrooms which just would not have met mums needs. She does not have an ensuite bathroom, just a loo but she can't find it anyway so it would have only made a difference to me, not her. Hope i haven't confused the issue.
It was agreed in the end that if a nursing home place came up that was near to us so we could visit (ie meet her needs) that they would pay the required rate if there was nothing else suitable available at that time in our vicinity.
The dementia sufferer should not be prejudiced by being kept in hospital until a place at the EPR rate is found. If a suitable place becomes available at a dearer rate then I think they have to pay the dearer rate if they cannot offer an alternative.
If two suitable places are available and one is preferred that offers a benefit that is not part of the care plan, but is more expensive, then a top up may be required. I think in this case it would be able to be paid by the service user as it is an extra to their care requirements. However the recipient would probably not have the capacity to make this decision so this is where it can get tricky for the councils.I think this is where power of attorney for health and finance would be of assistance.
I hope this makes sense - it took me a while to get my head round it. To be honest if the service user can keep all their money, pensions etc then I think it more than fair that some of their pension can be used for extras to make the person happier and more comfortable. I suppose it just depends what sort of home you can find, and I know some have shared bedrooms which just would not have met mums needs. She does not have an ensuite bathroom, just a loo but she can't find it anyway so it would have only made a difference to me, not her. Hope i haven't confused the issue.
Karjo,
Only part of your post that I would like to clarify and that is that Section 117 aftercare is funded by the Primary Care Trust (NHS) and not the council/local authorities. Even previously provided social care services are converted into the care plan that the PCT must pay for in full, ensuring of course that such services are still required.
Hope this helps,
Fiona
Only part of your post that I would like to clarify and that is that Section 117 aftercare is funded by the Primary Care Trust (NHS) and not the council/local authorities. Even previously provided social care services are converted into the care plan that the PCT must pay for in full, ensuring of course that such services are still required.
Hope this helps,
Fiona
Care Home fee's keep rising
My mother has been in a care home with Altzheimers for 6 years now. When she first went in the care home fee's were £32,000 a year. As my mother had funds in her account we were self funding (through the Court of Protection, we didn't get Power of Attourney) However, in 7 years, the fee's are now £43,000 a year, and her funds are rapidly running out. I don't think its fare that the care home fee's should have gone up so highly but don't know what to do about it. Her pot of liquid assets will only last another year and now we have to think about selling her property, which we've rented out until now. Is there any board or panel that regulates how much a care home charges? I don't feel we should be paying all her fee's but I suppose as we have property that we can sell, if we can sell it quickly, that means we have more than the £23,000 that gets LA to contribute. Moving her to another home would most certainly kill her as she's been in this care home long enough to be comfortable (if that's what you can call her life). Can anyone tell me who can I go to for advice in this matter?
My mother has been in a care home with Altzheimers for 6 years now. When she first went in the care home fee's were £32,000 a year. As my mother had funds in her account we were self funding (through the Court of Protection, we didn't get Power of Attourney) However, in 7 years, the fee's are now £43,000 a year, and her funds are rapidly running out. I don't think its fare that the care home fee's should have gone up so highly but don't know what to do about it. Her pot of liquid assets will only last another year and now we have to think about selling her property, which we've rented out until now. Is there any board or panel that regulates how much a care home charges? I don't feel we should be paying all her fee's but I suppose as we have property that we can sell, if we can sell it quickly, that means we have more than the £23,000 that gets LA to contribute. Moving her to another home would most certainly kill her as she's been in this care home long enough to be comfortable (if that's what you can call her life). Can anyone tell me who can I go to for advice in this matter?
Unless things have changed only mums nursing home £108 bit is funded by the NHS. The rest went to a panel where I believe it was hotly debated between the NHS and the SS as to who is responsible for what. I think it depends on where you live and what the individuals ailments are. We were not invited as it was simply to decide what is nursing care and what is social care, but did not make a difference to mum as she was not paying anyway.
Continuing health care is paid by the NHS but I think each council and PCT either make a prior arrangement on the split or battle it out individually when it comes to 117 aftercare.
Continuing health care is paid by the NHS but I think each council and PCT either make a prior arrangement on the split or battle it out individually when it comes to 117 aftercare.
S117 funding
FifiMo
My mother's care is definitely funded by the local authority apart from the £108 pw NHS nursing element. The office local authority Director of Finance sent a usual standard form letter to her (even though she couldn't read or understand it) confirming this once she awas in the nursing home. My understanding is local authorities can (and do) recover elements of the care from the local Primary Care Trust (although these are now disappearing), but this will not normally be visible to the patient or relatives.
Also like Karjo Mind advised me to get my father to seek legal advice. And we were advised that while the local authority was obliged to meet my mother's needs in full, they weren't obliged to do more than that.
Wirralson
FifiMo
My mother's care is definitely funded by the local authority apart from the £108 pw NHS nursing element. The office local authority Director of Finance sent a usual standard form letter to her (even though she couldn't read or understand it) confirming this once she awas in the nursing home. My understanding is local authorities can (and do) recover elements of the care from the local Primary Care Trust (although these are now disappearing), but this will not normally be visible to the patient or relatives.
Also like Karjo Mind advised me to get my father to seek legal advice. And we were advised that while the local authority was obliged to meet my mother's needs in full, they weren't obliged to do more than that.
Wirralson
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Funding for Care Homes
Thanks Karjo and Wirralson. I think the first port of call is to get in touch with the Home itself and get them to send me a break down of exactly what they are charging for. I also think I should get onto social services in the area and find out about getting the LA to pay for nursing care? Thats my first step. I have also heard that some homes will cut certain costs if you tell them that you are struggling to meet them - this I find hard to believe, but its worth a go. Many thanks for all who talk on this site - its very useful when you're trying to work it all out alone.
Thanks Karjo and Wirralson. I think the first port of call is to get in touch with the Home itself and get them to send me a break down of exactly what they are charging for. I also think I should get onto social services in the area and find out about getting the LA to pay for nursing care? Thats my first step. I have also heard that some homes will cut certain costs if you tell them that you are struggling to meet them - this I find hard to believe, but its worth a go. Many thanks for all who talk on this site - its very useful when you're trying to work it all out alone.
Thank you again everyone for all your replies. I am still looking for a home for my Dad and have one near to where I live, I am hoping it will be accepted as a placement for him, but if not I am preparing to fight thanks to all the help I have received from everyone on here, I really appreciate it all, it has given me a real boost to keep pushing.
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