Care assessment, bad situation, power mad Power of Attorney

J0nny

Registered User
Aug 24, 2012
3
0
My mother has alz at stage 6, very severe. Me (age 25), my brother (21) and my father live in the home (my brother and I have always done the vast majority of the care). This has gone on for five, almost six years. She's not in a good way now. We love her very much.

Our difficulty has arisen over time and has been created by our dad. He has always shown a lack of interest in my mother, and us. Kind of just ignored us and we ignored him as a result, aside from massive arguments involving just about anything. This has gone from bad to worse. Over the 5 years my mother got involved in the Alz society clubs, but now she has been asked not to go to them anymore as she was reacting badly to others (but never to me and my brother). She now relies totally on me and my brother. My father has refused to have a care assessment and pct for years then agreed (when we basically insisted as a family including my sister, who lives separately). The care assessment he cancelled numerous times. This time my brother has arranged it and he cannot cancel it. Which caused a huge argument. After a huge argument just 21/08 he threatened to kick us both out of the house etc, we're only still there for mother, both of us have made it so clear for so long that we want to move on and whats best for mother. She deserves a care home and even with both me and my brother there we were not doing enough. Dad told us during this argument that he planned to drag this on for another four months and would agree to putting mother in a care home after that time. The care assessment was brought forward by my mothers nurse (social care side), after we called her regarding the argument.

The house is full of threats and anger (all him), the whole place is a tip a million trip hazards (even after warnings by visitors including that nurse) and hes done nothing. There's been threats of physical violence. If me and my brother are not there then he has no problem with just leaving my mother. We've informed him this is neglect but he changes nothing.

The reason for all of this is the question! My father has (only) lasting financial power of attorney over my mother. Until this argument 21/08 he never discussed this with us, but during it he said that my mother had no assets. That she had nothing. This is a lie, aside from her savings she inherited £80 000, which we know still existed. So he does not want a means test as he has stolen from my mother. I called the office of the public guardian to report and they required proof to investigate! Aside from her brothers having evidence of the inheritance this is difficult. He also mentioned he intends to fund the care home privately (avoiding the means test and getting away with stealing the money).

We need mother to be out of his grip. We (the whole family apart from him) want her to be safe in a care home. And he will lie and deceive during the care assessment to avoid it. Any advice would be appreciated on action regarding his abusing mother financially and is there anything we can do to reduce his power in the situation. And what advice during the assessment (which will likely get quite heated, as he will deny his neglect etc forcefully).



Jonny
 

Onlyme

Registered User
Apr 5, 2010
4,992
0
UK
Hi Jonny and welcome

I'm sorry that you have a reason to join us. It sounds as if you have been a great support to your Mum.

Re your Dad - why does he not want an assessment for 4 months? Did he put the money in an investment? You don't say if your Dad is still working, perhaps he put the money all in your Mum's name and took advantage of her not paying tax. If she was assessed while the money is still 100% in her name he could lose everthing. Obviously he had told you all of this you would have a better idea of what was going on.
 

J0nny

Registered User
Aug 24, 2012
3
0
He said he wants to "let the dust settle on the accounts". From the implications of what he's said he means he's taken the money out of her name, he even mentioned taking shares out of her name. Some of their money was in joint accounts, but the inheritance etc was in her name, I think he's taken it all. He threatened me and my brother if we "went against him" and pursued care homes during the assessment.

No investments either (money wise), he's bought a house separately recently. And is definitely not acting in her interests.
 
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jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
Hi and welcome to Talking Point.

I'm wondering if the issue of the inheritance might not be a bit of a red herring. You say your father intends to fund a care home himself so that he doesn't have to provide any funding information, but the truth is, if your mother had £80K in an account then there wouldn't be a financial assessment anyway - she is well within the self-funding area. In fact, depending on your location, this £80K might pay for 2-3 years of care. Also, of course, if your parents had joint account when your mother was well, there is no reason at all for your father not to have mingled the assets - my husband and I have our assets linked in this fashion (including my own family inheritance).

I think by focusing on the money you are in danger of ceding the moral high-ground. The time to take on that issue is if he claims to the LA that your mother has no assets, although if that's the case the LA will doubtless do the work for you. I realise this is probably not what you want to hear and can understand the attraction of trying to rout him on all fronts, but in truth, you'd be better off focusing on getting appropriate care for you mother.

There is in fact no reason that I can see why your brother and you can't take the first step of having a look around and seeing what suitable homes are out there. It doesn't commit anyone to anything and you don't even have to tell him at this time.
 

ITBookworm

Registered User
Oct 26, 2011
456
0
Glasgow
I would think it will take more than 4 months for "the dust to settle" and the local authority (LA) to disregard anything that Dad has moved out of Mum's name!

If it is done deliberately so that Mum has less money to pay for her own care then the LA classes that as "deprivation of assets" and does all the calculations on the basis that the money still belongs to Mum.

Not sure if that will help if Dad is willing to fund Mum's care rather than do a financial assessment though :(

It wouldn't even be easy to report to the police if you don't have any definite confirmation like bank statements to say that some or all of the money is no longer in your Mum's name. And anyway if you had that the public guardian would be able to act.

I am so sorry I can't offer any better information but I do hope that you are able to come up with a solution that gives your poor Mum the best care that can be managed.
 

J0nny

Registered User
Aug 24, 2012
3
0
It's just ridiculous that we have to be concerned with this, it distracts from our focus on mother.

Thank you.

A further query, if the private funding is agreed to. What power will he continue to have? will he be able to pay as little as he likes and choose a low quality home? will he be able to decide to stop funding it?
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
Homes in a general area do tend to be a similar price although there are of course exceptions. You can have an expensive home with really quite sub-standard care and a very moderately priced home with excellent care so price doesn't always mean a great deal. Homes are also supposed to conform to some basic standards (some do, some don't) but again price won't tell you about that. Further, a home will be required to assess your mother to ensure that they can meet her care needs.

If he stops paying for the home then he'll be in breach of contract and get sued.
 

Onlyme

Registered User
Apr 5, 2010
4,992
0
UK
It does sound as if he might be trying to dodge the system with regard to funding. If she has assets of less than £23,000 then the local authority usually have to pick up the bill.

Is there a time limit that is taken into account and he thinks they won't take the money into account as it has been out of her name for more than so many years? I thought they looked back 7 years for deprivation of assets?
 

ggma

Registered User
Feb 18, 2012
1,126
0
North Staffordshire
So sorry to read about all your worries, you and your brother sound very caring. It does sound as though you have reached to time when full time care would be best. You do not have to have an assessment in order to place your Mum in a home if she is to be privately funded. It is usually for the first 12 weeks to be funded for you, so that might help get over the 4 months your Dad is talking about.

There is no reason why you and your brother and sister should not let Social Services, know what is happening to your mother, that you are concerned that if you and your brother left she would not be safe. You can provide background information as her main carers to social services to be used in addition to the assessment.

Social services have a duty of care to vulnerable adults, and it sounds as if you Mum is a vulnerable person. If your mum is at risk they have a duty to take action to protect her.

All care homes are inspected by CQC and have to reach certain standards to be registered to provide care. If you found that a home your Mum was in was not up to the required standard, you would be able to report them. If your Dad did not pay the care home fees, there are ways that businesses and social services take to recoup the debt.
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
It is usually for the first 12 weeks to be funded for you, so that might help get over the 4 months your Dad is talking about.

Actually that only applies when there is a property to be sold (the 12 weeks disregard). If you are self funded and there is no home to be sold (or the property is disregarded as it is when a spouse lives there) you pay from day 1.
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
If he tried that, then the LA would be looking for assets and there would be a financial assessment and then, if (and I have to say I think it's a very big if) he had in some way disposed of assets that rightfully belonged to his wife the LA would be taking a very deep interest.

I say if because as I know that my children (who are a similar age to the OP) really have no idea of my and my husbands finances and I think I might be a more than a trifle resistant to sharing that information, even though I have an excellent relationship with them, which doesn't appear to be the case here. So there may actually be nothing nefarious going on.

I simply feel that the OP, by concentrating on the financial issues and actually complaining to the OPG regarding his father's actions as an attorney is potentially placing himself in a position where he will be unable to help his mother. And it's clear that's what he wants to do - help his mother.
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
Something else I wanted to say: it's quite possible that the father really does think he will be able to get away with expecting the LA to pay for care, because sometimes 1) people really do not understand the ins and outs of this and 2) they think they are much smarter than they actually are. If that's the case there is still nothing that the sons can do at this stage. Later maybe, but not now, not as far as the finances are concerned.

It's not clear to me if the sons have approach the adult safeguarding unit of their local authority. If their mother is being left alone, if there are threats of violence towards her, this would the appropriate place to start.
 

Pon

Registered User
Dec 11, 2011
61
0
wales
care assessment of finances on my husband

Something else I wanted to say: it's quite possible that the father really does think he will be able to get away with expecting the LA to pay for care, because sometimes 1) people really do not understand the ins and outs of this and 2) they think they are much smarter than they actually are. If that's the case there is still nothing that the sons can do at this stage. Later maybe, but not now, not as far as the finances are concerned.

It's not clear to me if the sons have approach the adult safeguarding unit of their local authority. If their mother is being left alone, if there are threats of violence towards her, this would the appropriate place to start.

Hi Jennifer
I am one of the people who doesn't understand what is happening. My husband is still in hospital having been sectioned in June was taken off the 28 days sectioning and has been ready for discharge from hospital to an emi nursing home for 2 months now but there are so few beds available in such homes we have now been told he is next on the waiting list. My query though is that the LA has said he is self funding and he has £23,302 in the bank and a bond of £42,881.16 value on death £46,218.12 and an exit penalty of £883.24 so the LA have included the bond in his assets. They will not accept that the bond has a life cover attachment even though in a letter from standard life dated 19/11/2012 they say that they can confirm that their records show that the death value of the bpnd is £46,218.12 with the policy number the same number as the bond and the name of the life assured being my husband.

Do you know if the LA is right or wrong as it looks to me as though there is a life cover
attached to the bond

Thanks

Pon
 

jenniferpa

Registered User
Jun 27, 2006
39,442
0
Honestly, I'm not sure, as the portion of CRAG that deals with this is 1) less than clear and 2) itself says that the existence of such bonds makes the assessment complex.

Treatment of Investment Bonds
6.003
The treatment of investment bonds in the financial assessment for residential accommodation is complex because, in part, of the differing products that are on offer. For this reason councils should seek the advice of their legal departments when they arise. However it is possible to offer some general advice and councils are referred to the Social Security Commissioners decision R (IS) 7/98 which rules that an investment bond falls within the disregard by virtue of it’s intrinsic nature as a policy of life assurance. N.B. The AOR are largely based on Income Support Regulations .

6.004
Councils are advised that if an investment bond is written as one or more life insurance policies that contain cashing-in rights by way of options for total or partial surrender, then the value of those rights has to be disregarded as a capital asset in the financial assessment for residential accommodation (see paragraph 15, schedule 10 of the Income Support (General) Regulations 1987). In contrast, the surrender value of an investment bond without life assurance is taken into account.

I've also read R (IS) 7/98

Like you I do read this as meaning that if you hold an investment bond that has some "provisions for payment on contingencies dependent on human life" (i.e. a life insurance component) then it should disregarded as capital. However, R (IS) 7/98 goes on to indicate that depending on the reasons for taking out the bond, it may be considered to be deprivation of capital. In other words, if you take out a bond of this nature this week and go into a home next, you may not be forced to cash in the bond but you could still be counted as having said capital. Actually there appear to be no time limit for this - it's all about intent at the time the investment was made.

Is that possibly what is happening here? The LA is claiming that the intent was to shelter this capital and thus avoid payment of fees?

I really think you need independent competent (i.e. not something you will get from me or an online forum) legal advice.
 

Pon

Registered User
Dec 11, 2011
61
0
wales
care assessment bad situation power mad power of attorney

Honestly, I'm not sure, as the portion of CRAG that deals with this is 1) less than clear and 2) itself says that the existence of such bonds makes the assessment complex.



I've also read R (IS) 7/98

Like you I do read this as meaning that if you hold an investment bond that has some "provisions for payment on contingencies dependent on human life" (i.e. a life insurance component) then it should disregarded as capital. However, R (IS) 7/98 goes on to indicate that depending on the reasons for taking out the bond, it may be considered to be deprivation of capital. In other words, if you take out a bond of this nature this week and go into a home next, you may not be forced to cash in the bond but you could still be counted as having said capital. Actually there appear to be no time limit for this - it's all about intent at the time the investment was made.

Is that possibly what is happening here? The LA is claiming that the intent was to shelter this capital and thus avoid payment of fees?

I really think you need independent competent (i.e. not something you will get from me or an online forum) legal advice.

Thanks for your interesting replies the investment was in fact my husbands lump sum when he retired which was 12 years ago 5 years ago one of our sons needed 15,000 pounds to move from a flat in London to a house[help with deposit] as 1st grandchild was due so the remaining money was invested to be shared on my husbands death half to the son who agreed to leave his £15.000 share in the bond and the other half to be equally shared between our 2 sons[the one who left the investment in and the other who didn't. We didn't at any time shelter capital if that was the case we would have given my other son his £15000 then . Looks like in all innocence we are going to be treated badly

Thanks again

Pon