Care fees, charged following death.

[Lynnoc]

Hello,

My Mother died in May in a nursing home from vascular dementia. Mum was self funding. I have received the final bill. Only to find Mum has been charged an additional 14 days after she had died. I questioned this and was informed it was in the terms and conditions. I can't say I remember this, and it certainly wasn't pointed out to me. Has anyone else come across this? I feel like she has been violated, an being penalized for dying.

 

[kkh42]

Hello
What a shock!! I am very sorry to hear that you lost your mum.
Ask to see a SIGNED copy of the agreement, with the terms and conditions in it. If they dont have one, they have no grounds to ask you for the money. Is it because they want you to pay for the full month of May?
Alternatively, take the letter and any copies of contracts you have to citizens advice, I imagine the answer to this will be pretty clear cut, one way or the other.
Best of luck.

 

[PeggySmith]

It's revolting but not uncommon. I'll repeat kh42's advice - take it to CAB and get ot checked out. This is not what you need when your mother has just died.

 

[greengirl]

Hi, there was a case about this recently, I can't post a link on here but if you search The Telegraph newspaper site with the headline Care home charges grieving daughter £3,000 for access to dead father's room, you will find it.
Basically threaten to shame them in the local paper. They probably have you legally, but not morally!
good luck and sorry for your loss
gg

 

[FifiMo]

I think you might find that in a lot of homes that this is common practice. It provides them with a revenue stream until such time as a new occupant can be found. Whether or not this is morally right or not is a whole other discussion point and I doubt anyone on here would support what the home is doing!

It will all come down to the Contract between yourselves and the home and what the provisions are therein. Not only do you have to consider whether you are obliged to pay or not but also check to see what it says about the rate which you pay also. There could be an argument that whilst you might be legally obliged to pay something, the home cannot surely expect you to pay in full as some elements of the service charge are directly proportional to the services that they provided to your mother eg food, laundry etc etc. They cannot surely justify charging you the same rate if such a cost hasn't accrued - surely that could then be fraud?

I would certainly be talking to the CAB about this.

Fiona

 

[zeeeb]

I would be asking to see the signed copy to start with. and then perhaps pay everything outstanding apart from the extra 2 weeks, and tell them that if they want to be paid, they'll have to take legal action, and that you will endeavour to go public with this outrageous expectation and see how the media deal with it.

that's a bit wrong to charge that, and of course it's in the fine print. when you need to go in a nursing home, the fine print doesn't matter because your loved one needs care and help. the last thing you have time for is to sit down for a couple of hours in the evening and read fine print.

 

[jenniferpa]

I'm a bit ambivalent about this. I understand why a person who had lost their family member would think this was a bit extortionate, but I also understand that homes are a business and 2 weeks seems a fairly short period of time to turn over a room. A month I might well be arguing about but 2 weeks - I'm sorry but that seems reasonable.

I do think it all comes down to any contract that was signed. Realistically - this is about people we love but just because we love someone doesn't mean we shouldn't have to fulfill any contract.

 

[Onlyme]

I'm a bit ambivalent about this. I understand why a person who had lost their family member would think this was a bit extortionate, but I also understand that homes are a business and 2 weeks seems a fairly short period of time to turn over a room. A month I might well be arguing about but 2 weeks - I'm sorry but that seems reasonable.

I agree. Most places want a month in advance, and like a landlord, will charge if you leave half way through a month - even though it seems very heartless if the reason is due to the person passing away. Due to the ecconomic situation a lot of rooms are empty at the moment and the homes are sticking by the rules.

 

[Lynnoc]

Food for thought.

This was a totally unexpected charge. An there no more evidence needed that this is a exercise in raising extra revenue from My Mother.
This is also an example of the two tier system, mum was self funding, I have checked with the local authority an they do not pay an extra 14 days fees if they are supporting a person within the home.
So this appears to be a rule for one and not the other. Have been asked by care home to sent a letter to context decision. Will do this and see what happens.

 

[nmintueo]

Care home fees contining after death

Mum has been charged an additional 14 days after she had died. I questioned this and was informed it was in the terms and conditions. I can't say I remember this, and it certainly wasn't pointed out to me. Has anyone else come across this?

Yes.

"Always read the small print"
http://forum.alzheimers.org.uk/showthread.php?41784-Always-read-the-small-print

With care home fees, as with all sorts of things, always assume that unfavourable terms will be buried in the small print and not pointed out to you. (That said, our care home has been commendably careful to point out to us that they have a similar clause.)

This is also an example of the two tier system, mum was self funding, I have checked with the local authority an they do not pay an extra 14 days fees if they are supporting a person within the home.
So this appears to be a rule for one and not the other..

Indeed. The local authority has a lot more bargaining power so they can negotiate a better deal. A much better deal - here's one case where the local authority pays 1/3 less than individuals pay -
Paying care home fees
http://forum.alzheimers.org.uk/showthread.php?44369-Paying-care-home-fees

Have been asked by care home to sent a letter to contest decision. Will do this and see what happens.

It will be remarkable, though not unprecedented, if you can get anything done about it after the fact, but follow up and let us know what happens. If you want to play hardball, better get a lawyer (trouble with that, of course, is that if the care home won't deal, a lawyer probably costs more than the amount claimed). Did you sign the contract?

 

[Lynnoc]

Not sure!

Mum was funded by LH until her house was sold. Repaid LH, Mum was then self funding with AA reintroduced ect. I recall signing that contract. I don't however remember signing a new contract.

Also, the final bill does not provide a differentiation between when Mum died (20th May) and the extra 14 days. Its for the whole of May same as every other bill and another bill for the month of June with adjustments. At the very least insensitive, or was I supposed not to notice????

Have not as yet written the letter, each attempt is too emotive.

Thanks for the links Lynn

 

[Boudeca2007]

Wait a minute ............ how can they justify charging anything when they clearly have not given the deceased [ in the time period they are charging for ] [a] no care at all no meals at all [c] no 'lodging' services at all ?????? So what exactly were the charges for ??? I'm afraid Lynn that as soon as a person is ' self funding ' status ££££'ss signs appear and the Company will screw as much money out of you as possible.

When we moved my late Mum from a former nursing home which had been found by the CSCI to have neglected my Mum resulting in 2 broken hips they sent me a bill for 2 weeks. It still remains unpaid to this day and this was about 5 years ago. They haven't followed it up as I would have been straight to the press tout sweet if they had.

 

[Nannybus]

The contract for my mother's Home certainly did stipulate that a further two weeks payment, beyond vacating the room, would be needed. The only problem was that we had to pay in advance on the 1st of every month.

Mother died on the 4th November last and no rebate has been forthcoming, which means there has been a 12 day overpayment, even allowing for their contractual two week demand. It adds up to a considerable sum of money.

Any correspendence is met by silence.

Her previous Care Home was just the same. After a hospital admittance, they refused to have her back. Despite clearing her room they still charged us full fees, even though most of the month was spent in hospital, with no hope of her ever returning to the Care Home.

 

[nmintueo]

Mother died on the 4th November last and no rebate has been forthcoming, which means there has been a 12 day overpayment, even allowing for their contractual two week demand. It adds up to a considerable sum of money.

Any correspendence is met by silence.

Then sue. It's really not that big a deal to do.

You can file a claim online yourself, or get help from a solicitor or Citizens Advice.

Making an online court claim for money
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTaxAndBenefits/ManagingDebt/Makingacourtclaimformoney/DG_195688

(In my own case, I'd consider myself legally obligated to reclaim overpayment, since I have a financial POA currently and will be executor one day.)

Her previous Care Home was just the same. After a hospital admittance, they refused to have her back. Despite clearing her room they still charged us full fees, even though most of the month was spent in hospital, with no hope of her ever returning to the Care Home.

Again, check the contract. If they've breached the contract, sue them. You might feel more confident about that after you've succeeded with the first claim.

Sounds quite similar to this case:
http://forum.alzheimers.org.uk/showthread.php?42564-Care-Homes-repugnant-behaviour

 

[Nannybus]

I have contacted the Citizens Advice and they looked into the Contract of Residence and agree with me that a rebate should be forthcoming.

The contract states the following:

Clause 8. All fees are paid up to 1 week after the death to enable relatives to collect personal effects and clear the room.

All well and good but in my case, by paying monthly in advance the Home has kept 19 days worth of fees that they are not entitled to. It comes to a tidy sum. I still have had no reply from my letter reminding them of this fact.

I have watched Rip Off Britain this morning, which covers this matter. Most of the people participating in the programme paid fees in arrears, which meant they were landed with bills after their relative had died. This came hard for them, as all pensions and Attendance Allowance died with their relative, so they were having to find this money out of their own pockets, but at least they had the choice not to pay and make the Home chase them, not the other way round.

The guy at the Citizens Advice advised me to send another letter under 'recorded delivery', then if it is not acknowledged, to take the Home to Small Claims Court.

 

[janetlynn]

Hi,

Sorry that this has happened to you. It is very distressing!

Two days after my father died, the nursing home rang me to get me to take all his things out of his room as someone was waiting to move in.
I went up the following day, and they had put all his things in black bin liners and had stored them in a cupboard as someone else had already moved into dad`s old room.
I had paid the previous month`s bill and dad died three days into a new month, so I expected a bill for the three days. Silly me. At the end of the month, I received the usual bill for the month. It had a breakdown of the dates, nursing care, cleaning, food etc., This was very disturbing. I took the bill to the nursing home and showed it to the receptionist ( who usually takes the payments ). I politely explained that dad had died and may be there had been some mistake. She looked at the bill and didn`t know what to say. I asked to speak with a manager and the manager looked at the bill and said they charge by the month and that they still have expenses to pay. She was very cold and hard. I said I am willing to pay for my dad`s care, but not someone else`s. I suggested that she send the rest of the monthly cost to the new resident. She spoke with another manager, presumably someone above her, and came back red faced and begrudgingly took a reduced payment.

I hope you get it sorted out.

Warmest regards,
Janet.

 

[nythrak]

An even greater mess!

In my case my father was in a nursing home for about 3 months before he died. I do not recall signing a contract but when I found the invoices in my fathers room they had charged £100 more than they had verbally advised me. They had aslo advised they would apply for NHS funding which would reduce the fees by about another £100 and this would be netted off the bill. Additionally they had charged an extra 4 weeks after he had died. They are now pressing me for payment which is over £10,000.I advised them it would be sorted when probate obatined and asked for a copy of a signed contract which I do not believe exists. They were initially fairly insistent I had signed one but now they are not so sure. I am therefore inclined to 1) settle when I obtain probate 2) pay them the weekly amount on what I was verbally told 3) check with citizens advice as to the contractual legality of charging after death. I thought that continuing liability came to and on death. Finally care home advised me they would charge interest if not paid soon. This may end up in the county court, certainly in respect of disputed amounts. Bring it on!!