Sudden change

[britcare4]

As some you may know, we have been looking after our neighbour for a couple of years now. She has two carers from Poland, who take it in turns to live with her, but she likes us to pop over and be with her.
A week ago i took her to an ear specialist, because she complained of not being able to hear. Sure enough her ears were blocked and the doctor cleaned them out. She was fully aware of where she was and quite chatty. The very next day, my neighbour complained of pain and has not been out of bed since. She spent one day in hospital, but they couldnt find anything. Since then she has become incontinent, doesnt recognise my husband any more, still knows me, but is refusing to eat, drink or take her medicine. The GP now wants her son (also a doctor) to decide whether she should be admitted to hospital.
I fear she is dying, she doesnt want to live. Tomorrow I shall try and get her to eat something, she ate a little this evening. What should we do. She is totally unhappy, her husband died January last year, her daughter lives 8 hours away and is very cool towards her mother. Her son lives 2 hours drive but cant bring himself to pop over more than once a month. he hates us, because we blew up and told him what we thought of his behaviour. His mother worships him but he says he has problems himself and cant face his mother.
I feel it is a terrible burden for us to decide whether this poor woman lives or not. I am sure if I spoon fed her and stayed with her most of the day she could live a year or so. She is 90. Her Polish carers want her to live and cant understand how the children can be so hard. Are we prolonging the agony for her? She keeps saying she wants God to take her. I am not religious, but she is.

If we keep out of it then I am sure she will die soon. What is best? I just hope we dont end up like this poor woman. How can children be so cold hearted.

 

[SWMBO1950]

Sounds as though she may have an infection of some sort that has pulled her down so low so quickly.

"She keeps saying she wants God to take her". My mother would say this over and over again when she was ill about 3 years ago - she recovered with care and is still here and now nearly 98.

I cannot believe her GP is stalling getting her in hospital - if you are really worried get an ambulance and get ther there that way. she should not be allowed to suffer.

Does she have Social Worker? If yes contact them as a matter or urgency and if not do the same thing. This poor lady is obviously ill and vulnerable and needs official help.

Please let us know how you get on.

As some you may know, we have been looking after our neighbour for a couple of years now. She has two carers from Poland, who take it in turns to live with her, but she likes us to pop over and be with her.
A week ago i took her to an ear specialist, because she complained of not being able to hear. Sure enough her ears were blocked and the doctor cleaned them out. She was fully aware of where she was and quite chatty. The very next day, my neighbour complained of pain and has not been out of bed since. She spent one day in hospital, but they couldnt find anything. Since then she has become incontinent, doesnt recognise my husband any more, still knows me, but is refusing to eat, drink or take her medicine. The GP now wants her son (also a doctor) to decide whether she should be admitted to hospital.
I fear she is dying, she doesnt want to live. Tomorrow I shall try and get her to eat something, she ate a little this evening. What should we do. She is totally unhappy, her husband died January last year, her daughter lives 8 hours away and is very cool towards her mother. Her son lives 2 hours drive but cant bring himself to pop over more than once a month. he hates us, because we blew up and told him what we thought of his behaviour. His mother worships him but he says he has problems himself and cant face his mother.
I feel it is a terrible burden for us to decide whether this poor woman lives or not. I am sure if I spoon fed her and stayed with her most of the day she could live a year or so. She is 90. Her Polish carers want her to live and cant understand how the children can be so hard. Are we prolonging the agony for her? She keeps saying she wants God to take her. I am not religious, but she is.

If we keep out of it then I am sure she will die soon. What is best? I just hope we dont end up like this poor woman. How can children be so cold hearted.

 

[Chemmy]

This is an interesting ethical point. There have been many discussions on TP on how such suffering should end/ how it shouldn't be allowed/ we wouldn't treat an animal this way, etc.

Everyone is happy to theorise...but it's not so easy when you're the one at the coal face, is it? When it's your action - or inaction- that might be the difference between life and death.

My head says it's her choice. However, if I were in your shoes....I don't know what I'd do.

Sorry, that's not been much help, has it?

 

[rajahh]

as caring neighbours you are obviously finding this very difficult.

However I personally feel if the family do not want to help/intervene, then it is up to GP to decide. I do not think you should be involved in any decision at all.

This may sound hard, but as Chemmy says we have discussed this point on here and of course there are many opinions.

I am of the opinion to let nature take its course, and not to intervene at all

Jeannette

 

[Katrine]

You will not be prolonging her suffering by offering food. She may refuse it anyway. And you certainly can't keep her alive on your own by constant feeding vigil. Don't think too far ahead. Offer support to the carers with food and drink if you can. If she won't take either then a little jelly will give her some fluids and water. Something like an icepop would help keep her mouth comfortable.

I don't think you will do her any harm in trying to get her to eat but don't worry if you can't do this. The main thing is to try to get her to drink if you can, because without fluids she will go downhill fast. If she is admitted to hospital they can work on this so it sounds as if this is the best thing for her at present.

I don't know what the legal situation is in France with regard to treatment. Why does the GP have to get the son's permission to admit her to hospital? Surely if she needs treatment he will make a judgment on this based on his medical assessment?

It does sound as if your neighbour has reached the point where she wants to give up. Before modern medical treatment people listened to their bodies and took to their beds in recognition that the time had come. I think you recognise that this is what is happening and want to spare her from any further suffering. Is there any palliative care available there? Perhaps she could be moved to a hospice rather than a hospital?

 

[britcare4]

We are in Germany. There is plenty of care available once a person is admitted to hospital. Our neighbour hates hospitals and as soon as a doctor is near, she tells him she is fine. Both children want her dead as soon as possible, they dont even pretend. They have had terrible experiences with her as children, but surely now as adults (68 and 56) they could forgive? I think she could die in peace if they were to be at her bedside. However, neither intend to be here. I shall go over tomorrow and try and talk her into eating and drinking again. After that I cant do much. It is so sad. We are just neighbours but I would do the same again. On our other side we also have a sick neighbour in her 90s. But she has 3 carers, a housekeeper and a loving son. What a difference! It used to be different there as well, but now things are fine.

 

[greengirl]

Its wonderful that she has you. It is very hard to understand what makes a family behave in ways we find indefensible but it took a lifetime for whatever problems there are between her and her children to take root. I know from personal experience that sometimes the lovely old lady people see now completely hides the cruel woman that once behaved badly towards her children...

I think in France the Dr's are a bit more patriarchal and will do what the son wants. I would expect him to have screened at least for an ear infection that can occur after syringing, or a UTI. But perhaps she just needs tlc and to talk to a priest.
gg

 

[Katrine]

Sorry, I should have re-read your posts, I had mis-remembered what country you were in. With regard to forgiving a parent, I am blessed in that my mother's dementia has brought us together in a loving relationship after so many years of antagonism and conflict on her part. She was a loving mother to us as children but somehow her insecurity and narcissism meant that 2 out of the 3 of us were seen as 'bad children' when we reached our teens and adulthood and made choices about our relationships, careers etc. that she didn't like. I used to say to my husband that I couldn't face her dying because I would be left with all the anger and unresolved issues forever. Selfish I know!

Well the Lord has relieved me of that burden because when she developed dementia my mother quickly forgot why she didn't like me and now she tells me she is so happy to have me as a daughter. My younger brother, who moved to Australia to escape her, has also had a raprochement in the last few years. I am just so sorry that your neighbour's children have not been able to take this opportunity to build those emotional bridges that I have been privileged to do.

For me, it was the necessity of providing my mother with live-in care, and managing her finances and domestic arrangements, that gave me no choice but to step up and be the person I would always have liked to be to her, if she had allowed it. She did have friends and neighbours who provided her with help when my father died but if she did not have the help that we, her elder son and daughter, have been able to provide, she would have been put in a home by her solicitor.

Your neighbour has been so fortunate to have your consistent support. I also think that those loving Polish carers deserve a medal. Whatever happens in the next few weeks or months, you have done all you can for her and you will be rewarded for it in the hereafter.

 

[rajahh]

some things that happen to children cannot be forgiven or forgotten. My own children have absolutely nothing to do with their father ny ex husband. and I am very happy about that.

I have asked them all if they want to be informed if he becomes ill and they have all said no. I am in very infrequent contact with his second wife, but amnot sure if she would ever tell me if he was ill.

I think we have to leave adult children to make up their own minds up, they may very well have just cause to be inforgiving/

Jeannette

 

[britcare4]

Thankyou all of you for being so helpful. The carer did call an emergency doctor, but my neighbour told him she was fine! The following day the GP went to her and did blood tests. A week ago a carer called an ambulance and she spent a day in hospital, but her son, who happened to be here the following day (for the changeover of carers), had her taken home again. Being a doctor he probably has the authority to do this. He has power of attorney over his mother. Being the son he is, he went home the same day.

I am going over there this morning and shall see if she'll drink for me. I fear if she has made up her mind to die, then nothing will change her mind. I might ask the local priest to come, he used to go there once a month and did call by on her birthday.

 

[Isabella41]

Both children want her dead as soon as possible, they dont even pretend. They have had terrible experiences with her as children, but surely now as adults (68 and 56) they could forgive? I think she could die in peace if they were to be at her bedside.

Speaking from my own bitter experiences its very often not as simple as that. I know to forgive someone is a choice but when you have been subject to a horrible childhood for a myriad of reasons it is alot more complex. Hurt that builds up over many years is hard to dissapate. Obviously I don't know these particualr circumstances but I firmly believe that few people are that cold and distant without good reason. There are the exceptions of course but by and large this lady is probably reaping the rewards of how she parented her children.

It is very hard to understand what makes a family behave in ways we find indefensible but it took a lifetime for whatever problems there are between her and her children to take root. I know from personal experience that sometimes the lovely old lady people see now completely hides the cruel woman that once behaved badly towards her children...

For many years my mum was just like this in that it was only my late father and I who saw the real person she was - full of anger and bad manners who seemed to delight in causing rows and had a mouth like acid.

On a more positive note your neighbour is very fortunate she has you and her polish carers. I think if I were in your shoes i'd forget about trying to influence this person's family to get involved. You don't (I presume) know what went on in the past within this family and therefore could be getting into something you really don't want to get into. Focus on helping this lady as much as you feel you can and then leave the rest of the care to the others who are involved.

Isabella

 

[Chemmy]

I agree with the last couple of posts from Jeanette and Isabella. I'm truly shocked by some of the stories you hear on this forum about the horrible way some parents have treated their children, so it really is not for anyone outside the family to judge.

 

[britcare4]

I spent a couple of hours with our neighbour today and am convinced she has had a stroke. She cant speak and has trouble swallowing. The doctor knows our opinion, so now we are waiting to see what happens. the son seems determined that his mother doesnt go to hospital, but if the GP thinks she should, then he can over rule the son.
I agree that we shouldnt attack the children for their behaviour, but it is hard to witness such coolness. The daughter admits she has no feelings for her mother, the son says he has depression problems himself. Their mother was a very dominant person and told them what they had to study and who they should marry etc. They were not allowed to complain if ill and a heck of a lot more. She even threatened to tell the police when her daughter was pregnant and wanted an abortion and phoned the fathers boss to let him know his member of staff had got a woman pregnant (against the law in catholic Bavaria at the time).She was terrible to her dying husband just over a year ago. But this woman is suffering.
I'll let you know what happens in the next week.

 

[greengirl]

You are caring for her regardless of what came before and that is the right thing to do. I think that as the priest already knows her she may get comfort from a more regular visit and find peace in that.
it must be very hard on you to be involved so practically and emotionally and at the same time be relatively powerless. I think you are a very good neighbour and friend to her.
x gg

 

[DoTheRightThing]

I spent a couple of hours with our neighbour today and am convinced she has had a stroke. She cant speak and has trouble swallowing. The doctor knows our opinion, so now we are waiting to see what happens. the son seems determined that his mother doesnt go to hospital, but if the GP thinks she should, then he can over rule the son.
I agree that we shouldnt attack the children for their behaviour, but it is hard to witness such coolness. The daughter admits she has no feelings for her mother, the son says he has depression problems himself. Their mother was a very dominant person and told them what they had to study and who they should marry etc. They were not allowed to complain if ill and a heck of a lot more. She even threatened to tell the police when her daughter was pregnant and wanted an abortion and phoned the fathers boss to let him know his member of staff had got a woman pregnant (against the law in catholic Bavaria at the time).She was terrible to her dying husband just over a year ago. But this woman is suffering.
I'll let you know what happens in the next week.

You reap what you sow in life and she sounds like she has been a pretty horrible person to be honest. Kudos to you for being kind to her but I think it would be also be kind of you not to judge her children, who have probably been very damaged by having her as a mother.

You are a neighbour and therefore at an emotional distance so it is much easier for you to play the role of the good samaritan.

 

[britcare4]

Well, my neighbour went down hill fast and last Saturday I called an ambulance. She was taken to a local hospital suffering from dehydration. My neighbour returned home yesterday and the hospital report said she had had a minor stroke, had heart problems, kidney failure, poor blood values. They managed to get her kidneys going again and improved the blood values. However, she will remain unable to leave her bed. Her son still hasnt been to see her and her Polish carer is finding it a strain. One person can't cope with 24 hour care for someone so disabled and it is essential they organise a second carer to live in all the time. At the moment they change over every 5 weeks. I think actually, the time has come for our neighbour to go into a nursing home, but that will be up to the son. It is terrible to see a person so helpless and hardly able to speak.