Paying care home fees

[jenniferpa]

It's not particularly straightforward working out what will happen when your mother is no longer self-funding. Some homes (the one my mother was in which was part of one of the major care home chains) accepted the LA rate which was much less than the self-funding rate. That's one of the reasons I chose it - so that there would be no possibility of her having to move. Other care homes will not. In those situations you "might" have to move her but you can also make a really good case that this is her home and to meet her needs the LA needs to cough up some more money.

In the 6 years I've been on the forum, I think I have only read one post where someone said "my mother's money has run out and the LA want to move her" and in that case the LA backed down. Generally, if the going rate is the going rate, the LA will pay it (or negotiate it down). Obviously if you've found the only care home in the country with gold plated taps and butlers than might not be the case, but mostly it is.

 

[zeeeb]

it is insane that people are not just looked after if they contribute to the system their whole life.

i went to a nursing home "around the corner from my house" thinking it might be good to have someone 2 minute walk away from me, as then i would be able to visit every week instead of making long trips only when i had a half a day to spare, and they told me that he needed to $300000 deposit (yes 300 thousand dollars australian) as a deposit to get a bed. And that's not even the posh one down the street a couple of blocks, i shudder to think how much that one costs.

i don't think it's bad that if a person has significant savings, that they need to pay for their own care, because it's really not important how much they give to their kids when they die, their kids shouldn't feel so greedy that their inheritance is their god given birth right. if my parents need to spend every cent they have to be comfortable in their old age, i'm more than happy to not have an inheritance. but yeah, contributing members of society, long time tax payers, should be looked after, they shouldn't be disadvantaged. It feels as though those with no assets, and no money, just go straight into the system no questions asked, but those with money have to just shell it out hand over fist in order to even get access to a bed. In Australia, it seems as though if you want a place in a nursing home, you need to be on deaths door, or you need to pay a broker to secure you a place in a nursing home.

My step grandfather inlaw is 87, has been on a waiting list for over a year now, and hasn't been offered a place. He is virtually deaf, has legionaires disease, every time he gets a cold he gets pnumonea. He is alone, his wife is 96 in a nursing home in the end stages of alzheimers, he can't visit her because she's so far away. He has no kids, only 4 people in the world who visit him who are only step relatives. He has drop foot, so can't drive, stuggles to walk, poor balance. He's even paid a ridiculous amount of money to get into a retirement village where when he signed up, he was sold it on the proviso that when he needed to go into the nursing home, he just moves across the road into the nursing home (yeah right, a year on the list, and no bed offered at that nursing home, or any other).

But if he were to pay a broker, he'd probably have a bed within weeks.

makes me CRAZY angry.

 

[Tracy999]

Blame the government

Sorry in advance if this offends anyone but it's our government that need a good kick up the ****. Think of it this way. Most of our elderly have worked damn hard all their lives , never claimed a penny in handouts , and lived by the laws of this country. They get to old age and instead of looking after them they are penalised with these hefty care charges. My aunt is in a nursing home and her care works out at £150 a DAY. If she wants her hair done or needs a chiropodist it is extra. Because she worked hard and saved hard paid tax and NI for 50 years and never committed a crime this is how the idiots ( government ) of this country repay her.
In the other boat we have the scum of society who rob ,, murder ,,sells drugs etc etc and gain 10s of thousands of £££s in crime. They get sent to butlins (oops I mean prison!!) they get 3 hot meals a day,, recreational time, state of the art tvs and all mod cons ,, they get free NHS ,, the list is endless. BUT,,, are they means tested ??? NO,,, they get their holidays paid for by all the people that have paid into the system. Is that fair??
I have worked since leaving school and have bought my children up to do the same. The 1 thing I have learned though is to enjoy every single penny of my hard earned cash while I can and I will never leave a big pot of money in the bank for the government to steal back. As soon as my youngest leaves home I'm selling up and going somewhere hot. Live life while you have the chance is my motto. Ps I'm an end of life nurse and sympathise with everyone who is faced with this awful illness
GOD BLESS OUR ELDERLY

 

[SailingWanderer]

Care home fees cost more to private payers

Sorry in advance if this offends anyone but it's our government that need a good kick up the ****. Think of it this way. Most of our elderly have worked damn hard all their lives , never claimed a penny in handouts , and lived by the laws of this country. They get to old age and instead of looking after them they are penalised with these hefty care charges. My aunt is in a nursing home and her care works out at £150 a DAY. If she wants her hair done or needs a chiropodist it is extra. Because she worked hard and saved hard paid tax and NI for 50 years and never committed a crime this is how the idiots ( government ) of this country repay her.
In the other boat we have the scum of society who rob ,, murder ,,sells drugs etc etc and gain 10s of thousands of £££s in crime. They get sent to butlins (oops I mean prison!!) they get 3 hot meals a day,, recreational time, state of the art tvs and all mod cons ,, they get free NHS ,, the list is endless. BUT,,, are they means tested ??? NO,,, they get their holidays paid for by all the people that have paid into the system. Is that fair??
I have worked since leaving school and have bought my children up to do the same. The 1 thing I have learned though is to enjoy every single penny of my hard earned cash while I can and I will never leave a big pot of money in the bank for the government to steal back. As soon as my youngest leaves home I'm selling up and going somewhere hot. Live life while you have the chance is my motto. Ps I'm an end of life nurse and sympathise with everyone who is faced with this awful illness
GOD BLESS OUR ELDERLY

Here here !!
Our elderly would be far far better cared for in our prisons and that is a fact.....really something to be proud of isnt it ?

 

[zeeeb]

Sorry in advance if this offends anyone but it's our government that need a good kick up the ****. Think of it this way. Most of our elderly have worked damn hard all their lives , never claimed a penny in handouts , and lived by the laws of this country. They get to old age and instead of looking after them they are penalised with these hefty care charges. My aunt is in a nursing home and her care works out at £150 a DAY. If she wants her hair done or needs a chiropodist it is extra. Because she worked hard and saved hard paid tax and NI for 50 years and never committed a crime this is how the idiots ( government ) of this country repay her.
In the other boat we have the scum of society who rob ,, murder ,,sells drugs etc etc and gain 10s of thousands of £££s in crime. They get sent to butlins (oops I mean prison!!) they get 3 hot meals a day,, recreational time, state of the art tvs and all mod cons ,, they get free NHS ,, the list is endless. BUT,,, are they means tested ??? NO,,, they get their holidays paid for by all the people that have paid into the system. Is that fair??
I have worked since leaving school and have bought my children up to do the same. The 1 thing I have learned though is to enjoy every single penny of my hard earned cash while I can and I will never leave a big pot of money in the bank for the government to steal back. As soon as my youngest leaves home I'm selling up and going somewhere hot. Live life while you have the chance is my motto. Ps I'm an end of life nurse and sympathise with everyone who is faced with this awful illness
GOD BLESS OUR ELDERLY

Here here as well. I was thinking of that, but held my tongue...

 

[Boudeca2007]

Why don't they means test the prisoners ?? The government does that with people who have to have full time nursing care !! Make the cons PAY for their own meals and board - seems fair to me anyway.

 

[Witzend]

Why don't they means test the prisoners ?? The government does that with people who have to have full time nursing care !! Make the cons PAY for their own meals and board - seems fair to me anyway.

I guess the 'proceeds of crime' act does take care of some of it, but then I guess quite a few cons don't have much in the way of assets anyway. Should imagine that quite a few have very little.

I do agree that it seems grossly unfair for someone who's taken very little from the state, saved and been prudent, etc. to have to fund everything, while someone who's gone mad with credit cards and blown everything on clothes, cars and expensive holidays, will have their care paid for.

I can't say it fills me with joy that my mother's care has cost well over £125,000 so far - and she herself would be utterly horrified - but OTOH if you work it out per day it doesn't cost a great deal more than B&B in a pretty bog-standard hotel around here.

Fact is, residential care is extremely expensive and has to be paid for somehow. There is no bottomless pot of money - though there's no doubt that there's criminal waste in both central and local government - so where is the money to come from? Would we all like to pay significantly higher taxes, only to have the government and our local council waste still more of it?
To be honest I'm not sure I would.

One thing I'd really like to see is a real crackdown on the kind of deliberate benefit fraud that's often perpetrated by people with all sorts of assets. Don't send them to prison - that just costs taxpayer money. Give them whacking great community service orders - something like litter-picking would be good, confiscate their passports - and make them pay back double what they've scammed.

(That's quite enough ranting - Ed.)

 

[Boudeca2007]

It cost my late Mum a lot more than £120k as she was in a nursing home for nearly 10 years we had to sell her jewellery [ well what little she had ] her house - everything. She was assesed as requiring 24/7 EMI Nursing Care and I thought that the NHS act states that care should be free at the point of need or something like that. If we follow the same rules that apply to the elderly dementia patient then why does someone who requires nursing care other than a Dementia patient get it for free ?? why aren';t they means tested ?? I'm just following the same logic that the government applies to an elderly dementia patient.

 

[JackMac]

Sorry in advance if this offends anyone but it's our government that need a good kick up the ****. Think of it this way. Most of our elderly have worked damn hard all their lives , never claimed a penny in handouts , and lived by the laws of this country. They get to old age and instead of looking after them they are penalised with these hefty care charges. My aunt is in a nursing home and her care works out at £150 a DAY. If she wants her hair done or needs a chiropodist it is extra. Because she worked hard and saved hard paid tax and NI for 50 years and never committed a crime this is how the idiots ( government ) of this country repay her.
In the other boat we have the scum of society who rob ,, murder ,,sells drugs etc etc and gain 10s of thousands of £££s in crime. They get sent to butlins (oops I mean prison!!) they get 3 hot meals a day,, recreational time, state of the art tvs and all mod cons ,, they get free NHS ,, the list is endless. BUT,,, are they means tested ??? NO,,, they get their holidays paid for by all the people that have paid into the system. Is that fair??
I have worked since leaving school and have bought my children up to do the same. The 1 thing I have learned though is to enjoy every single penny of my hard earned cash while I can and I will never leave a big pot of money in the bank for the government to steal back. As soon as my youngest leaves home I'm selling up and going somewhere hot. Live life while you have the chance is my motto. Ps I'm an end of life nurse and sympathise with everyone who is faced with this awful illness
GOD BLESS OUR ELDERLY

no offence taken here Tracy. I agree with every word! Well said by the way!

jackmac

 

[frazzled1]

just to throw a "spanner in the works" i came across some small print in a CH brochure whereby you can pay a large "lump sum" in advance before your loved one goes into a care home and if they start at the CH and die a week later....so be it....it was a luxury stay......or they may live past getting their "telegraph from the Queen " (had to get that in cos its nearly Jubilee time!!!) thereby making it a value for money stay, if you see what i mean.

I personally think the saddest thing of all is to start a loved one off in a beautiful, costly care home they adore, go into the "red" a couple of years down the line, and then be in the situation of a forced transfer from the place they love into somewhere completely different. Although i am of course assuming that the "expensive" care homes are better than the "budget" care homes.....which could be totally untrue. Its being uncertain about how long one needs to finance care that is the difficult bit along with choosing care that is going to bring the most personal happiness. Theres a "start date" and "finish date" to schools or University studies but not to old age care. its this little detail that i find quite scary. After reading all that everyone is saying on here i begin to feel all the more muddled and befuddled as there are so many contrasting viewpoints, but its an interesting debate all the same. I bet that if every Debating Society in England had this same discussion people would be in the building talking for so long they would be locking the premises up at midnight.

 

[Edwardo]

I personally think the whole system is wrong... AD is a terminal illness and therefore should be treated as such, as are a lot of the other Dementia related illnesses.. However that is the case and therefore when things get to the stage when you cannot cope anymore our loved ones have to go into Care Homes and depending on your circumstances have to pay.. I agree everyone should pay the same not a case of SS getting it cheaper because they buy in bulk. I have made a decision that my husband worked hard all his life for his family to support them he is only 62yrs old and started with this awful illness at the age of 54yrs, I am 49 and havent been able to work for the past 8yrs due to caring for him, when the time comes I will have to go back to work to support myself, we have no savings but are lucky enough to own our own house, we have been to look around a few care homes for the future as I know thats what will happen eventually.. I want the best for my husband as do we all and as unfair as it is I know I will have to pay some kind of top up fee towards the care he gets. As unfair as it all is whatever has to be done we will do it. Everyones circumstances are different... but they should be we are all in the same boat, caring for our loved ones through an awful illness.

 

[frazzled1]

My Dad went into a care home last year as he has Ahlzeimer's and my mother's health is so poor she can no longer look after him ( he is 88 and she is 81 )
We are not entitled to any help with costs but what really gets to me is that we pay £600 a week for Dad and social services only pay £400 a week per resident in the same care home ...how can this be fair ?
My Dad worked hard all his life, was a giver of his time in the community and never had a thing from the state in all his life
The Dilnot report earlier this yeas suggests a cap of £35000 for self funding ones health care in a lifetime we have nearly paid that in a year
We also had to pay for my mother to go into a private setting to recover last year as she was considered ok to be discharged from hospital as she could get to the toilet on a zimmer frame ( she lives alone now )
I am ashamed at the way we treat old people in this country...my parents have me nearby to fight their corner but what of those who have noone ?

thank you "jenniferPA" for your reassuring comments that you have only heard one case of someone who has "run out of money" being forced to move out of their care home to a different one as that was my main concern should someone need care for, say, 10 year or more (but its silly talking in terms of years as the illness takes hold of people individually at different timescales, so no one person has the same experience). I wouldnt expect the LA to pay for a home with gold plated taps and a butler but if you live in the London area or South East then ANY CH is very expensive.

is there a great regional variation in costs of Care Homes or is it pretty much a standard cost for caring specifically for Alzheimers patients throughout England???? I only have knowledge of Care Homes in other European countries, not England, so would be interested to know.

 

[jenniferpa]

There is quite a wide variation in care home costs across the country, roughly in line with the cost of housing - so as you would expect, London and the Home Counties lead the pack in terms price while more distant parts of the country might (but are not necessarily) more reasonable.

I think there are very few, if any, places that charge less than £400 a week while I've heard of prices as high as £1800 a week.

 

[Billie61]

I agree with the fact that having money behind you helps towards getting the care home of your choice, with maybe the en-suite option if that is desired. I also know that having the funds is often the only reason some elderly couples can actually stay together in the same care home.

However I find it hard to accept that over so many years of being taught to be savers and doing the best for your children, that these same people are then denied the privilege passing their hard-earned savings to whoever they wish rather than use it all in getting the same care as someone else who has never saved, may never have even worked and has had a lifetime of spend spend.

Good point about prisoners being means tested. It has been discussed for a long time now that prisoners have a better lifestyle than our elderly.

 

[winda]

My husband is moving to a CH on Monday and we are self-funding.

This has been an advantage as I have been able to choose a lovely nursing home for him which is also nearby.

But of course, my own income will be much reduced and it will be a struggle for me to maintain the house etc.
There was no choice in this as the consultant thought it would be the best thing for him as he needs 24 hour care. I know I couldn't have coped with him at home.

At least I am glad that my husband will be in a nice place and will be looked after (hopefully). He would be horrified if he knew his hard-earned money was being spent in this way as he was always so frugal.

I only hope that when his money runs out he will not have to be moved to a cheaper place.

 

[Brenda230]

"The 1 thing I have learned though is to enjoy every single penny of my hard earned cash while I can and I will never leave a big pot of money in the bank for the government to steal back. As soon as my youngest leaves home I'm selling up and going somewhere hot. Live life while you have the chance is my motto."

Many people have also come to this conclusion. We've met quite a few who have sold up, bought a large motorhome or a cottage abroad and live there now on the proceeds.
In fact a friend in Portugal is about to be discharged from hospital (heart problem) into a local OAP home. It seems that he will be cared for there either free or for the cost of his pension. He has no money and lives in a caravan.

 

[Brenda230]

Continuing NHS Care

I have read somewhere about something called 'Continuing NHS Care. I gather that if the person would otherwise have to be kept in hospital, then the nursing home cost would be met by the NHS.
Worth looking into?

After all if they were not there they would need to be in hospital or mental hospital wouldn't they?

 

[Saffie]

I have read somewhere about something called 'Continuing NHS Care. I gather that if the person would otherwise have to be kept in hospital, then the nursing home cost would be met by the NHS.
Worth looking into?

After all if they were not there they would need to be in hospital or mental hospital wouldn't they?

Oh dear! I don't think are very many people on this forum who haven't applied for this but although awarded to the fortunate few, most applications are turned down. I was told that in my area you have to be in a terminal state before it will be awarded. Every criterea which was indicated as high for my husband - who has multiple health problems as well as vascular dementia - by nurses, was downgraded by the CHC team.

It can be a very hard-fought battle to obtain this even on appeal.

 

[Boudeca2007]

If a person is to go into a care home then it is the person who is going into the home's finances which are looked at - not the spouses or families.

Continuing Health Care is not only awarded to ' terminal ' cases it depends on their particular health needs. It is worth applying for and can be applied for retrospectively. I am still fighting for this for my late Mum and appeals go right back to 2004. It is important to state here that appeals for CHC will end in September this year so ask your local PCT in writing - preferably sent by registered post - before September.

In October 2007 the ' National Framework for CHC ' was published. This should have put an end to ' postcode lotteries ' whereby depending on where you lived you either got NHS Full Funding or not. If you want to read the National Framework for CHC revised 2009 then you can down load it here :

http://www.dh.gov.uk/prod_consum_dh/groups/dh_digitalassets/documents/digitalasset/dh_103161.pdf

Have a read and if you believe your relatives fit the criteria described then apply for CHC from your PCT.

 

[winda]

Hi Boudeca,

Although it is true that only the person who is going into a CH is assessed it still affects a spouse as half of that person's occupational pension has to go towards the CH fees.

Actually, thinking about it, it is the same as if they had died.